Author Topic: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?  (Read 714 times)

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Hippocrates

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2024, 05:59:54 pm »
Exactly my thoughts re new government - the time is right and ripe. And homogenisation.  Been saying for it years and even mentioned to an adjudicator some months ago.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2024, 06:01:46 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

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ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

cp8759

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2024, 06:02:50 pm »
Quote
To homogenise London Bus Lane legislation with Moving Traffic legislation. - Hippocrates' petition.

I think that this hints at an alternative way forward. As Mr Mustard & CP point out above (replies#9 & #11), the disparity in legislation governing the various types of PCN and ensuing enforcement needs urgently addressing.
Be careful what you wish for. If the TMA 2004 applied across the board, many of the arguments we use would disappear.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

John U.K.

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2024, 06:18:51 pm »
Be careful what you wish for. If the TMA 2004 applied across the board, many of the arguments we use would disappear. CP8759

Which is why I suggested a collective approach to deciding what needs changing, what needs standardizing, what needs retaining and I would add a very considered approach to the law of unintended consequences.


Hippocrates

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2024, 07:56:45 pm »
All I wish for is for the incorporation of para. 7(6) into moving traffic law. As cp8759 discussed with me the last time we met, the whole system may well collapse, which is not my objective.  ;D Frankly, the discrepancies re dates etc can be kept as the clowns swap and change anyway. In the last year, RBK have had three incarnations of their bus lane PCNs.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

peodude

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2024, 10:35:17 am »
I don't think we necessarily need more representatives. As admirable it is that people spend their free time helping other people, i think that can coexist with self representation. After all, it's only fairly recently, with the hard work of cp in particular, that the majority of cases on Pepipoo were getting representation.

cp8759

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2024, 11:49:46 pm »
I don't think we necessarily need more representatives. As admirable it is that people spend their free time helping other people, i think that can coexist with self representation. After all, it's only fairly recently, with the hard work of cp in particular, that the majority of cases on Pepipoo were getting representation.
The success rate for those who are represented is way, way higher than self-represented litigants, probably over 90%.

We do lose the odd case here or there, but it tends to be the odd exception where someone's taken on a marginal case or where the discount was lost anyway so there was nothing to lose in giving it a go.

Of course the vast majority of people never post anything at all and just represent themselves based on arguments they've found on here (or previously on pepipoo), but we have seen plenty of cases where someone has represented themselves and they've lost a winnable case. In fact in the last few days I've had two people who contacted me because they were so confident of the arguments they'd found that they'd taken it upon themselves to represent others, and they lost.

Fundamentally I think anyone who would like to be represented should be able to get representation.

Part of the reason why I like representing people is because I'm naturally lazy: if I see a case I know a winning argument or strategy for, it's far, far easier for me to run the argument myself than to try and explain to a novice how to go about it: it would take far too long and they wouldn't be as effective anyway.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Hippocrates

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2024, 06:47:59 am »
Very recently I spoke with an appellant at the Tribunal who had won a Cox Lane Bus Gate case. When I guessed it was that location he asked if I were an adjudicator! Sitting in my usual corner, with my laptop open, I just said I helped people. Quite a few people I meet win their cases - I can't say how many. Statistics, of course, are by their very nature open to an elasticity of interpretation.  8) And many people haven't heard of pepipoo or ftla.

As for "laziness", I cannot agree though I often question one's psychological reasons for doing all this.  :o  :-\

I do believe in fate, especially when I consider a couple of chance meetings in the last three years which have resulted in some good publicity.  More to follow in due course.  ;)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 06:56:50 am by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ