Author Topic: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?  (Read 7288 times)

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Hippocrates

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2024, 05:59:54 pm »
Exactly my thoughts re new government - the time is right and ripe. And homogenisation.  Been saying for it years and even mentioned to an adjudicator some months ago.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2024, 06:01:46 pm by Hippocrates »
How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

cp8759

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2024, 06:02:50 pm »
Quote
To homogenise London Bus Lane legislation with Moving Traffic legislation. - Hippocrates' petition.

I think that this hints at an alternative way forward. As Mr Mustard & CP point out above (replies#9 & #11), the disparity in legislation governing the various types of PCN and ensuing enforcement needs urgently addressing.
Be careful what you wish for. If the TMA 2004 applied across the board, many of the arguments we use would disappear.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

John U.K.

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2024, 06:18:51 pm »
Be careful what you wish for. If the TMA 2004 applied across the board, many of the arguments we use would disappear. CP8759

Which is why I suggested a collective approach to deciding what needs changing, what needs standardizing, what needs retaining and I would add a very considered approach to the law of unintended consequences.


Hippocrates

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2024, 07:56:45 pm »
All I wish for is for the incorporation of para. 7(6) into moving traffic law. As cp8759 discussed with me the last time we met, the whole system may well collapse, which is not my objective.  ;D Frankly, the discrepancies re dates etc can be kept as the clowns swap and change anyway. In the last year, RBK have had three incarnations of their bus lane PCNs.
How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

peodude

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2024, 10:35:17 am »
I don't think we necessarily need more representatives. As admirable it is that people spend their free time helping other people, i think that can coexist with self representation. After all, it's only fairly recently, with the hard work of cp in particular, that the majority of cases on Pepipoo were getting representation.

cp8759

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2024, 11:49:46 pm »
I don't think we necessarily need more representatives. As admirable it is that people spend their free time helping other people, i think that can coexist with self representation. After all, it's only fairly recently, with the hard work of cp in particular, that the majority of cases on Pepipoo were getting representation.
The success rate for those who are represented is way, way higher than self-represented litigants, probably over 90%.

We do lose the odd case here or there, but it tends to be the odd exception where someone's taken on a marginal case or where the discount was lost anyway so there was nothing to lose in giving it a go.

Of course the vast majority of people never post anything at all and just represent themselves based on arguments they've found on here (or previously on pepipoo), but we have seen plenty of cases where someone has represented themselves and they've lost a winnable case. In fact in the last few days I've had two people who contacted me because they were so confident of the arguments they'd found that they'd taken it upon themselves to represent others, and they lost.

Fundamentally I think anyone who would like to be represented should be able to get representation.

Part of the reason why I like representing people is because I'm naturally lazy: if I see a case I know a winning argument or strategy for, it's far, far easier for me to run the argument myself than to try and explain to a novice how to go about it: it would take far too long and they wouldn't be as effective anyway.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Hippocrates

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2024, 06:47:59 am »
Very recently I spoke with an appellant at the Tribunal who had won a Cox Lane Bus Gate case. When I guessed it was that location he asked if I were an adjudicator! Sitting in my usual corner, with my laptop open, I just said I helped people. Quite a few people I meet win their cases - I can't say how many. Statistics, of course, are by their very nature open to an elasticity of interpretation.  8) And many people haven't heard of pepipoo or ftla.

As for "laziness", I cannot agree though I often question one's psychological reasons for doing all this.  :o  :-\

I do believe in fate, especially when I consider a couple of chance meetings in the last three years which have resulted in some good publicity.  More to follow in due course.  ;)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 06:56:50 am by Hippocrates »
How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

Hippocrates

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2024, 01:55:12 pm »
New Petitions Committee still not formed.
How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

dave-o

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2024, 02:56:51 pm »
Agree that a tool to guide the person through the process and determine timelines would be one of the best things to get more greenhorns to enter the ring.

In the absence of an app (which will be prohibitively expensive) a simple website after the style of a flow diagram could work.  e.g.:

Form A uses simple questions to identify if private or council, if council it directs to Form C

Form C uses simple questions to determine which legislation it is under

etc.

etc.

(e.g.) it has been identified that it is council, under TMA2004, the person has received but not replied to a NTO, the NTO date is XX/XX/XX.

The person can be advised that they have until XX/XX/XX to submit an appeal to the council ("Add this to your phone calendar now"), and that although it is likely a discount period will be reoffered, it might not.  etc.  Host these documents (xxx, xxx, xxx, xxx) with an image host using this guide, start a post in this forum, ideally ASAP.  Copy and paste this text in your post: (the system will generate all of the known facts in a standardised format so easy for forum members to see where it's at)


This still relies on manual interaction on the forum but TBH it seems to me like anything that gives auto-advice on appeals is fraught with pitfalls.

This kind of thing could be done on a website, with pretty basic HTML and JavaScript, and would require little development or ongoing cost.

Hippocrates

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2024, 07:25:24 pm »
On my weekly visits to Furnival Street, I do it the old-fashioned way - word of mouth. Actually, when next in Kos, I will get a T shirt printed with ftla on it and wear that!  Serious. Three adjudicators have witnessed my "Licence to Thrill" shirt.  I did not show them the back: 007. But the admin. staff have seen it.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2024, 07:27:56 pm by Hippocrates »
How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

mdann52

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2024, 11:54:02 am »
I did start work on such a piece of software in the past, but quickly hit issues, lack of time etc and couldn't progress it further. I guess the question is what do we want? A full case management/tracking software, probably probably with "here's the deadline for your appeal, and here's what's worked for that location/code/authority before", or something much more lightweight?

It's a lot of work to do and maintain voluntarily though, I don't have enough experience of the intricacies of the legislation to create a "quick steps" to identify issues with the notices, or to flag up key cases etc. If people are willing to work with me, I'm happy to revitilise the project, with the caveat I'll only have a matter of hours a week to work on it so it won't be a quick job.

Pastmybest

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2024, 10:04:26 pm »
For me, to much is done of forum when people represent. I can understand the reason for this and am guilty of doing the same when i have represented people. But the knowledge we have is denied people coming here for help. We should endeavour to make sure that the arguments being run are set out in every thread


Hippocrates

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2024, 12:39:00 pm »
Lately I have witnessed several people conducting their own appeals and winning. Anyways, I am having a special T shirt made next month and will wear it at the Tribunal.  ;D
How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

Me and my boys

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2024, 09:47:32 pm »
I have lots of friends who always just pay up because they believe it's risky to fight and just gets more expensive. Also they do not have time to fight as it seems so complicated. If it's possible to have general instructions? Info like, how many people win, to make them believe it's possible and not too risky. Encouragement to do so would help. Apps like the neighbourhood app always say, it's not worth it, just pay up  :-\

tasty_snacks

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Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2024, 12:28:15 am »
Thought I'd add my two pennies to this conversation.

I've just had a CEL PCN appeal upheld, thanks entirely to advice from this forum.

Years ago, when less risk averse, younger and crucially - had no kids, mortgage nor a serious job and therefore had more time - I would fight every ticket I received. With the help of Pepipoo, and some self learning, I managed to win every single PCN battle. Brilliantly, I also told family members and they to, time willing, won several appeals.

I remember winning those appeals at The Angel, then going for a celebratory pint each time at (I think?) The York, just up the road from the appeals office. It was often easy. Rarely did the issuing party turn up, and sometimes they didn't even send the paperwork. They even on one occasion sent a representation for a different offence, car and date....

I was always 99% sure I'd win going into that office.

Thing is, those days I lived in London, and could afford the time to attend. Several years later, and faced the option of £60 - £100 versus the effort of going to London, even to win, the fine feels like the sensible choice.

It was only really that I found myself hacked off with the injustice of it all that I Google'd Pepipoo after all these years and followed the paper trail here.

I guess my point is this - busy people (which is most people) would rather through gritted teeth suck up a penalty. They don't know what recourse they have, and even when they do, it feels too much of an effort.

I've confused council issued notices with private notices above purposely, because therein lies a problem. The whole system needs full reform, with a single penalty fare set by central Government, with a single appeal place for both private and council issued PCNs. It's wholly ridiculous to expect the average motorist to be aware of their rights dependent upon where and when they received a PCN.

Ah, but how can Government impose a flat fine for PCNs I hear the cowboys cry? Easy, amend the act to state that EVERY issuing body must be a regulated body and therefore adhere to centrally set fines and standards, with centrally set appeals processes. No sign up, no authority. And penalties for organisations that issue PCNs who haven't signed up. If a vehicle is parked illegally and can't be removed, it's a police matter (which will swiftly get the police on board with encouraging those that issue PCNs to sign up).

Returning to the issue of whether or not a recipient of a PCN chooses to challenge - under a regulated agreement, the appellant is offered recourse at the collective expense of those who (must) join the regulated scheme. This has to follow a process of issuance, and right to appeal. If the appellant wins, it is an the expense of the issuing company (including travel costs, time off work etc). You have to make it clear, and cost neutral, for the person who receive the ticket. If it worked properly, you could even have a triage centre (which is where the more experienced members here could monetise it) to inform the recipient of the likely chances of success - which is essentially what you good folk here do for free.

Ultimately, IMO, people just don't have the time to fight. But if provided with a free recourse system that was made abundantly clear from the offset, with the option of triage to weed out the no hopes, and if that was regulated to make sure it was clear on every single PCN, that's the only way more would be encouraged.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2024, 12:32:46 am by tasty_snacks »