Author Topic: TEC out of time refused. Should I file N244 without hearing or with? HELP  (Read 341 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

VaeK

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Hello !
Hope you've had a good weekend. I'm in need of clear advice leading to prompt actions as I have 5 days to make a decision this upcoming week.

I'm going to try and explain this as clear as possible.
I'm having a stressful time bearing in mind I had to also travel into Central London to solicitors to sign the PE2 & PE3 forms document

Summary:
-2 PCN's by Barking and Dagenham (b&d) Council both dated 8th April 2022 - No notice of the occurred offences.
-Did not receive any correspondence about these until enforcement agents knocked on my door of my new address in Jan 2024 therefore wasn't given the chance to appeal nor given enough notice to pay. I was shocked and confused because I would paid it straight away.
(side note: It wasn't actually me driving but my younger brother borrowed my car running errands prior to a family wedding on 9th April 2022)
- In April 2022 was also 7 months pregnant with my 1st child and ordered to work from home during that time so can prove I wasn't driving but working sending emails around the time of the PCN and I normally pay promptly to keep on top of my bills considering I have nursery fees to pay for my 1st child etc.

Timeline:
- 24th Jan 2024 - Received enforcement agents CDER Group letter and agent knocked on door that same week.
-Called B&D and they stated they have transferred it to enforcement agents due to no correspondence sent to my old address, B&D they have my previous address on file.
- Enforcement/Bailiffs kept visiting and intimidating me. I refused to accept their letters and told them I will file an out of time.
-Filed an TEC Out of Time Statutory declaration in February 2024
- Within the TEC forms evidence submitted and highlighted that I moved to my new address early February 2022, redirected my mail via Royal Mail in Feb 2022, updated DVLA for change of address and logbook in March 2022, submitted my new tenancy agreement and letters proving my move from previous address which Barking and Dagenham Council state they had my old address on file and were sending letters there. Also stating there must of been an elapsed crossover of time for DVLA to update their records. Submitted work emails. Also attached CDER Group letters and emails to prove my prompt communication and correspondence.
- TEC refusal letter dated 31st May 2024 received letter Friday 7th June
- I have approx 5 days left this week to file the  N244 as the letter is dated 31st May.

Please kindly advise on the best next steps as stated before the bailiffs knocking on my door (they last requested 700+) in my current state is stressful for my family and I considering it wasn't me driving but to the fact that I have tried to prove and give all the evidence that I can to prove didn't receive the 2 PCN's at all. Please advise anything I can do emails or letters to be sent as soon as possible.

Do you think it may be worth filing the N244 without a hearing which is now 119 or with a hearing costing 313. In person seems the only way for them to see my current mental and physical state however and the costs are racking up unnecessarily. With the N244 will I have to submit more evidence alongside the original TEC I previously added? Will i need legal advise to write up the with the N244 form please do say.

Looking forward to any response and advice!


Thanks!
« Last Edit: June 09, 2024, 09:14:34 pm by VaeK »

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter


H C Andersen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 843
  • Karma: +19/-0
    • View Profile
You have posted in the wrong forum, you need Council tickets. (now done)

I have asked the moderator to move so don't touch!

But to make the most of the time..

This process depends upon accuracy and evidence. Dates need to be exact.

Your account is typical of someone whose DVLA registered keeper details were not up to date as at the date of contravention. Therefore we and you need:

Address A(your old address) was the address on your V5C until ***;
Address B (your new address) became the DVLA address on ****(look at the V5C pl, actually get the doc out and check);
The registered keeper was C as at the date of the contravention and C was the or one of the persons listed under RM's mail forwarding service which was in effect from ** to ***.

In addition, pl post copies of your OOT reasons, TEC's refusal letter and CDER's Notice of Enforcement. I ask for the latter because this 'letter' and their agent attending couldn't occur in 'that same week' because a NoE must give 7 clear days for payment before the matter is escalated and 235 additional fees added to the debt. By posting the notice we can see the date of posting and last date for payment, both of which are stated clearly. TEC's letter will tell us the latest date by which an N244 must be submitted.

Time is not your friend in this matter, but with your prompt help we can be.

Neil B

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
  • Karma: +2/-2
    • View Profile
In addition, pl post copies of your OOT reasons,
That in particular.
You are asking us if you should seek a review of the TEC decision to refuse but not yet showing us what has been refused?

Enceladus

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 140
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
For future reference you can get the Statutory Declarations and Out of Time applications witnessed free of charge at any convenient County Court. It says such on the forms.

Be aware that you will need two review (N244) applications, one for each of the TEC refusals. So each application will attract a fee.

You will not be able to get the fees refunded even if your applications are granted.

However the fees will be waived if you qualify for an EX160 remission. So low income, low savings and qualifying benefits. See here.

Who was driving is irrelevant. The vehicle owner is liable and that's presumed to be the Registered Keeper of the vehicle at the address held by the DVLA on the date of the contravention.

So please answer the questions above by H C Andersen and Neil B above. And post up all the documents that you have, just redact your name & address where present. Please leave everything else visible.

Did you get anything from B&D objecting to your Out of Time applications, usually titled "Statement of Truth" or did you get them with the Traffic Enforcement Centre notices? If you did then please post them up as well
« Last Edit: June 09, 2024, 03:31:21 pm by Enceladus »

VaeK

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Hello
Thanks for you response!! Of course I tried to upload the letter, resized the image several times but the website said error hence why I gave dates.

This is the response:
Court order drawn 31st May 2024

"Your recent application to file a Statutory Declaration/Witness Statement out of time was referred to the Court
Oficer for a decision without a hearing under Part 75.5(1) of the Civil Procedure Rules. Your application has been refused.
The Trafic Enforcement Centre (TEC) is unable to assist with any queries you may have regarding why the application was refused. The Court Officer is not required to give an explanation for refusal. The refusal is determined on the evidence provided for your reasons for filing the application out side the given time, and not the original contravention. Please be aware that any enforcement action may be reintroduced by the Local Authority pursuing you and the TEC do not have the authority to stop enforcement action. "

This is the same response for both PCN's.

VaeK

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
I've been trying to upload images since this evening. It keeps saying folder is full even though the images are below 1KB as stated on the attachment notes. So frustrating. Can I send you the TEC forms directly? All my information is redacted apart from the relevant parts to answer your questions directly

Enceladus

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 140
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
At the top of page 1 of this forum there is a sticky post titled READ THIS FIRST..... It includes instructions on how to post up documents and images.

In essence you can host your docs and images on a third party hosting site and then paste the links to them into your posts on here. There are several sites to choose from and all offer a free of charge option.

VaeK

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Hello please see link to the relevant documents.

https://imgur.com/a/5PdlTHu

CDER Group letters,
OOT reasons same for both PCN's
TEC refusal letters and court order date 31st May
RM redirection old address from 09/03 til 08/06/2022
Log book date: 09/05 filed for change of address March 2022 DVLA didn't update til early May 2022.
Contravention date: 08/4/22

I'm ready to pay the fee to file 119 x 2 or fill in the 2 N244 forms which I need guidance for once reviewed so please inform me of the next steps. Time is going to fast friend.

Thank you!

Enceladus

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 140
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
Do you have anything to show that you applied to the DVLA to update the address on your V5c logbook in March 2022? An email acknowledgement maybe?

When you submitted the Out Of Time applications you should have been sent copies of a "Statement of Truth" from LBBD for each PCN. These would detail why LBBD object to your OOT applications and would have been sent to the address you put on the OOTs. Did you receive any such documents? 
« Last Edit: June 10, 2024, 01:24:51 pm by Enceladus »

VaeK

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Hello,

No I haven't received anything, no communication with LBBD until I called on 8th Feb stating I wanted to appeal the PCN as I tried to do it online but they said it was transferred to the enforcement agents so denied my request. Additionally I asked what address they had on file and it was my old address, I asked them to update it to my new address.
Nothing received via LBBD.

Regarding DVLA I will check my emails but I am pretty sure I would of included this in my original evidence if I received the change of address application receipt I'm thinking it was done via post.

Is the SoT key for the case?

Enceladus

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 140
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
The statement of truth is not crucial. However it helps to know what LBBD have said, so you can rebut it. When you file an OOT application the Enforcement Authority should send you a copy of why they oppose the application, if they oppose. LBBD seem to believe that such rules don't apply to them so they frequently don't bother.

It would also be good to have some evidence that you applied for the V5c logbook address update before the 8th of April 2022. Otherwise the District Judge might just conclude that you didn't apply until May 2022, so this is a problem of your own making,

However the Royal Mail redirect is also good evidence. Even if you didn't actually apply to update your address until after April the 8th, you should still have got the notices in the post via the re-direct.

You could also try contacting Bailiff Advice Online. They may be able to help you complete the N244 applications in return for a small donation.

Try to keep the case very simple.
On date X I changed address from A to B
9th Mar 2022 I paid for a Royal Mail redirect for three months .
On March ?? 2022 I completed the change of address form for the V5c logbook and sent it to the DVLA.
8th April 2022 is the date of the two alleged contraventions.
The Borough requested the Registered Keeper details from the DVLA but though no fault of mine the address update had not yet been processed. Delays with the DVLA were widespread news in 2021 and 2022.
etc.
etc.
As a result I did not receive the initial Penalty Charge Notices and was denied my right to challenge the Notices and to appeal to the Independent Adjudicator.

VaeK

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Ok thank you.

You mentioned needing to see all evidences do you have any other comments? . Is there anything else you could add or in your point of view could help the case? Should I contact LBBD as part of my property is in the borough or it may be a conflict of interest.

I think the latest date to file is a maximum by the end of this week.

Neil B

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
  • Karma: +2/-2
    • View Profile
I think the latest date to file is a maximum by the end of this week.
The last date by which you must file N244 is the 18th.
BUT if you have god reason for a delay and can explain it then they accept later submission.

Have you yet looked at form EX160 that Enceladus mentioned?

VaeK

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Hello,

Yes I have started to fill the form for assessment aiming to finish in between my work meetings today.

Trying to make sure I input the correct info etc.

Ok 18th I was really aiming for this week.

What do you think of getting more legal advice because I really thought it would go in my favour with TEC but it's left me feeling a bit worried that I might get rejected again.

Enceladus

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 140
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
I still recommend that you seek advice from Bailiff Advice Online. Ask for help in wording your N244 applications. You only have one shot at it.
 
Bear in mind that this is about your reasons for being late with your Statutory Declarations. And that is the only only issue that the District Judge is allowed to consider. The merits or otherwise of the actual alleged contraventions, who was driving etc are not relevant. If you enclose any copies (and only enclose copies, keep the originals safe) of documents with the applications then clearly mention them in the text of your applications.

So a simple chronology that shows that at the time of the alleged contraventions your V5c logbook was in the process of having the Registered Keepers address updated by the DVLA. It was not your fault that the DVLA provided an out of date address to the Council. You have no control over how long it takes for the DVLA to action such requests. Do a bit of news research. Seems to me that early in 2022 there were lots of complaints about DVLA delays, that was still in the COVID disruption timeframe. As a result of the out of date address you did not receive the Penalty Charge Notices or any of the other statutory documents, in particular the Orders of Recovery (of unpaid penalty charge).

Mention that you did put in a place a 3 month post re-direction on March 9th 2022. But it didn't produce any of the Council notices.

Unless things have changed, BAO will know for sure, then you need one application per TEC refusal notice. So two in your case. You can't combine applications. Since you won't be getting the fees refunded then you'll have to go for an "on the papers" hearing at 119 each. As opposed to a hearing in person.

I would have expected that your original OOT applications should have been accepted, given your account of the circumstances. That said, your Out of Time applications were a bit cluttered with irrelevancies and probably the point was lost that you had applied for the RK address update on March ?? 2022 and the alleged contraventions occurred on April 2022. However your address wasn't updated until May ?? 2022, hence the DVLA supplied an out of date address to the Council. Something that was not under your control.

The interests of justice require that your Out of Time applications should be accepted so that the cases can be reset and you can have an opportunity to submit representations and appeal to the Adjudicator or pay the penalties at the Penalty Charge Notice rates.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2024, 02:16:16 pm by Enceladus »