Author Topic: TEC out of time refused. Should I file N244 without hearing or with? HELP  (Read 341 times)

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H C Andersen

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'I also can provide evidence of move to the property.....redirecting my mail via Royal Mail..I also changed my address..DVLA.

..changed my DVLA address with DVLA prior to the date..

OP, I fear that any hearing is not going to go well because it will be on the papers and so no chance for you to convey your credibility to the judge.
Facts AND evidence in support of those facts is what counts IMO.

IMO, you failed previously because, as I understand it, you did not provide evidence in support of your claims, you simply asserted in writing.

This won't do IMO.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but you get one bite at this cherry - per PCN- and you need to assemble evidence.

So, let's break things down.

1. The OOT itself
Why an OOT at all? Because you did not receive the OfR.
Why?
Because - to use shorthand- it was addressed to your old address, was not captured by any redirect arrangements and you were not expecting it.
Why addressed to your old address? Because this was the address provided by DVLA as your registered address at the time of the contravention.

Whose fault is this? You say DVLA's but from what I can see have no direct evidence in support.

09/05 filed for change of address March 2022 DVLA didn't update til early May 2022.
On March ?? 2022 I completed the change of address form for the V5c logbook and sent it to the DVLA.


So let's look at this. What evidence do you have that you filed for a change? If no hard evidence, then look at it backwards i.e. in order for DVLA to change the address they needed a request from you..and if this wasn't the one you say you made in March then when did you do it? It had to be done at some time! Have you asked DVLA why they updated their records? Remember, DVLA are not part of the enforcement process. For all we know they have a note on your file to say that the change of RK was made on *** but that the request came from you in March!

So, have you hard evidence of your request in March?
If not, did you contact them at any time prior to receiving your new V5C to chase them or submit a fresh request?

2. Given that you say you had a RM redirect in place, why were the council's notices(note my use of the plural) issued during its currency not captured by Royal Mail?
You have evidence that unnamed- to us at least- persons' mail was to be redirected from 9 March to 8 June.
So far you've focused exclusively on the PCN, but IMO - and you can check with the council- you would have been sent at least 2 notices during this period, not just the PCN
So, what notices or correspondence were sent by the council prior to, say, 5/6 June? Ask them.

Following on from this point - was the exact person's name as on the previous V5C listed on the mail redirect and was the address exactly the same as on the V5C?

3. Why weren't you expecting the PCN?
Follows from the above.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2024, 05:24:37 pm by H C Andersen »

VaeK

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Thank you! I don't mind a truthful and different eye in order to help refine the focus.

Will also get onto the suggested.

Neil B

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Thank you! I don't mind a truthful and different eye in order to help refine the focus.
What does this mean? Are you now going to compile the necessary evidence and test it here?

I can help you with the N244 application form but let's have some substance.

VaeK

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I meant in relation to Anderson mentioning he was harsh - that I don't mind his response being harsh/truthful (from his perspective) as I appreciate a different viewpoint to help me refine the focus of my response.
Apologise if it was read wrongly.

Very grateful for your help!! OK yes I can test it here and if you're able to help that would be great

VaeK

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Morning. Up early Stressing about this again not good for me and baby.

But I called LBBD twice and spoke with 2 customer service reps each one gave me different information but they haven't received a TEC decision yet and they were a bit helpful, they provided me with dates on when letters were issued.

BZ978749490
9/6/2022 - PCN issued
14/7/22 Charge Cert
4/8/22 PDR letter
12/7/22 Order of recovery
21/9/22 - CDER Group Warrent to court

No letters in 2023.

29/1/24 - Appeal done online done by myself after receiving CDER Group letter.
31/1/24 - Appeal Progress letter LBBD confirm all letters was sent to my previous address.

I asked for the most recent letter to be emailed but course LBBD didn't want to resend.
So have requested for the telephone recording and will add to my evidences that I've applied for the telephone recording even though it will take 30 days. I will screenshot my call log and application to add it also because the lady verbally mentioned my previous address of the letter to sent on 31/1/24. Crazy. LBBD clearly did not update their records with DVLA.

The PCN is an ANPR so was advised it takes longer to issue therefore issued on 6 June 22. However all my DVLA registered keeper details were up to date by then but but I still did not receive any letters after. LBBD confirm it was sent to my previous address but need to prove it! I have contacted my previous landlord but she wasn't nice to us so need to use other avenues. Clock is ticking but I'm adamant and need this info complied accurately.

H C Andersen

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As regards the Royal Mail:

According to your evidence:

9/3/2022 - 8/6/2022
9/6/2022 - PCN issued
6/4/2022 - contravention date.

Therein lies part of the answer: there was a gap of more than 2 months between the contravention date and the date of issue of the PCN.

What evidence other than a phone call do you have regarding the date of issue of the PCN? It's absolutely key.

I had a similar case recently which involved the same principle but with slightly different facts. This involved my son driving a company van and not receiving the NTO and OfR..and then the CDER notices came.
A suitably worded letter to Wandsworth council resolved this. The issue was that the idiots wrongly formatted the keeper's address so that the post code was missing from the address - not overtyped on a lower line, but missing.

An authority may not as a matter of law seek to enrich itself from an unlawful act. In  my case the NTO had not been served because the notice did not carry the DVLA's address for the registered keeper.

In your case, prima facie the PCN was served out of time* (more than 28 days after the contravention) and is therefore invalid. Everything else falls as a result. The keeper does NOT have to make reps on this point, the PCN is invalid in law. That the delay also meant that it escaped your RM redirect is actually incidental.

Here's the Act https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/6/enacted.

* Nothing you've posted suggests that any of the exemptions is in play, therefore 6(1) applies.

VaeK

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Thanks for this. Is the something I lead with in the form 6(1)

Still haven't heard back from BAO.

No other PCN issue evidence as it was in 2022. I have looked through my letters and emails but that only shows I was working during that time and potentially going to hospital appts.

 I have tried LBBD again but they are not giving straight answers....

H C Andersen

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So how do you know the PCN was issued in June 2022?

Why haven't you submitted a SAR if you don't have the originals or copies of notices. As I say, you need proof.

If you have proof, then IMO don't bother with the N244. You simply write to the council. DVLA is irrelevant, Royal Mail is irrelevant. An invalid PCN is an invalid PCN(whatever b****y address it carries). It could not be served therefore the enforcement process never moved off square 1. You would therefore be entitled IMO to take the matter to the Local Government etc. Ombudsman.

My case was very similar and I didn't advise the company to pursue the N244 route - the council had objected to the OOT* which the company only found out about when they received the enforcement agent's Notice of Enforcement. I simply wrote to the council.

*- standard stuff, 'we sent the NTO' etc. etc. Of course the company hadn't received the notices so the error was unknown until they wrote to the council whose lower-level staff were similarly obdurate and obstructive - a company isn't covered by the Access Regs so couldn't submit a SAR.

VaeK

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So how do you know the PCN was issued in June 2022?

Why haven't you submitted a SAR if you don't have the originals or copies of notices. As I say, you need proof.

Hello,
As mentioned previously I have no proof of the PCN issued on 9/6 apart from my phone call where it was confirmed 2 times yesterday by LBBD but I am trying to get physically evidence but it feels like time is running out to obtain it?

I have submitted a SAR knowing this new information. I requested  the letters verbally on the phone but they denied but I've just realised they can't deny as it's my information.

Yes an invalid PCN is an invalid PCN but I feel it's gone far if I write to the council will they acknowledge it? LBBD confirmed they did not send any letters in 2023 which I feel was an intentional delay tactic. Wouldn't they/TEC just resume with the balliff action that is causing me to be stressed in my condition if I simply write to them? The time to file the N244 would of passed.

Just some thoughts out loud.

S50095

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Hi I have the exact same situation but my refusal letter arrived 5days after the n244 deadline !!!!! I'm so stressed need help

Neil B

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Hi I have the exact same situation
I think that very unlikely.
You need to start a new topic of your own if you want advice.
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Bailiff Advice

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Thanks for this. Is the something I lead with in the form 6(1)

Still haven't heard back from BAO.

Clearly, an N244 needs to be completed. I am providing assistance....
Thank you for contacting me.

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