3. Haringey PCN 53 New Pedestrian Zone
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JoeyBloggs

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Haringey PCN 53 New Pedestrian Zone
« on: March 21, 2024, 11:13:17 pm »
22/01/24 - 53 Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for your previous help on the Pepipoo forums. I would have posted there but the website seems down.

I received 2 x PCNs of code 53 in Haringey for being in newly created pedestrian zones one after the other on the same day/time:
01/02/24 - PCN A - Click here
31/01/24 - PCN B - Click here

I had no idea about it until receiving the fines. I appealed explaining I didn't see the signs nor had any advance notice:
13/02/24 - Appeal Sent to Haringey - Click here

I then got a rejection a long time after my appeal and their text in the letter is missing / off the page on the right with their own photos that don't relate:
14/03/24 - PCN A Rejection - Click here
14/03/24 - PCN B Rejection - Click here

I feel I should appeal because:
1. My points in the appeal feel valid - signs were hidden behind a corner with a bush, there was no advance signage, I didn't receive any mail about the new zone being a local resident, and I have no reason to willingly drive through 2 zones one after the other.

2. Their rejection letters are not printed correctly with text cut off, could this be seen as invalid?

3. Their rejection letters large photos show the opposite direction of my travel and the other shows an example that's an incorrect section of the alleged incident. So again, is their evidence invalid?

I've attached the map showing what I mean with number 2 and 3 above:
Map - Click here

I don't know if I have any grounds or not to continue the appeal - either pay £130 now (I think I have 7 more days) or risk £260 if I lose.

It's annoying as I pay over £300 to Haringey just to park my car outside my house, and now they want more. My gut says to fight. Though I'd really appreciate your thoughts and advice with this.

Thank you for your time and help.

JB
« Last Edit: March 21, 2024, 11:19:03 pm by JoeyBloggs »
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Incandescent

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Re: Haringey PCN 53 New Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2024, 01:26:20 am »
They state that advance warning signs are in place. Are they ?

Unfortunately, Google Street View is not sufficiently up-to-date for us to see the layout of signs.  However their photos show the signs at the entry to the restriction are in place.  Yet again, it seems, restrictions have been put in place without any warnings at all, or advance publicity.  However, this is not grounds for cancellations at London Tribunals who just deal in law. You passed the sign, so the contravention is made out, unless you can show the signage is deficient, and this is, unfortunately, subjective.

Did your son not know what the "flying motorbike" signs meant ?

Anyway, from your narrative, it seems the placement of the signs and advance warning signs is the issue. The main signs are there, but are the advance signs in place ?  You have the absolute right in law to take them to London Tribunals. However, you must also take a "double-or-quits" gamble, as the discount option is not offered at adjudication.
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Neil B

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Re: Haringey PCN 53 New Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2024, 05:52:51 am »
I'm gonna guess that you were told on pepipoo that the wording concerning issue of a charge certificate is flawed - and has since been corrected, enhancing your chances of winning on that alone?
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Neil B

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Re: Haringey PCN 53 New Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2024, 06:03:01 am »
Quote from: JoeyBloggs on March 21, 2024, 11:13:17 pm
the page on the right with their own photos that don't relate:
[3. Their rejection letters large photos show the opposite direction of my travel and the other shows an example that's an incorrect section of the alleged incident. So again, is their evidence invalid?

I've attached the map showing what I mean with number 2 and 3 above:
Map - Click here
I don't really understand what you mean and your map appears flawed.
It shouldn't be possible to enter the same ped zone twice???
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Hippocrates

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Re: Haringey PCN 53 New Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2024, 12:08:05 pm »
@JoeyBloggs:  the wording is wrong.  They cannot serve a charge certificate 28 days from the date of the PCN. I am happy to represent you at the Tribunal. PM me if you wish to take me up on my offer.

PCN is unenforceable.

I bring a collateral challenge on the ground that it does not comply with the mandatory requirement of section 4(a)(v) of, and paragraph 5(2)(a) of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003.


https://bit.ly/2ALghSS

Adjudications-Key cases  149-161.  I represented in no 160 and had another won recently because they did not adduce any evidence: 2230567864.

**********

By the way, because of us, they have now realised their error and fixed the problem.  But, yours is a straightforward case.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2024, 05:11:28 pm by Hippocrates »
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How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

JoeyBloggs

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Re: Haringey PCN 53 New Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2024, 06:58:57 pm »
Quote from: Incandescent on March 22, 2024, 01:26:20 am
They state that advance warning signs are in place. Are they ?

Unfortunately, Google Street View is not sufficiently up-to-date for us to see the layout of signs.  However their photos show the signs at the entry to the restriction are in place.  Yet again, it seems, restrictions have been put in place without any warnings at all, or advance publicity.  However, this is not grounds for cancellations at London Tribunals who just deal in law. You passed the sign, so the contravention is made out, unless you can show the signage is deficient, and this is, unfortunately, subjective.

Did your son not know what the "flying motorbike" signs meant ?

Anyway, from your narrative, it seems the placement of the signs and advance warning signs is the issue. The main signs are there, but are the advance signs in place ?  You have the absolute right in law to take them to London Tribunals. However, you must also take a "double-or-quits" gamble, as the discount option is not offered at adjudication.

Hi,
1. No - there are no advance warning signs - I've been up and down the road to check. I can submit video evidence?
Correct I passed the sign, the thing is, I did not see that these are new, being round a corner and me being on "autopilot" and looking out for pedestrians.

2. Haha yes I know what the flying motorbike is (I am the actual son and been driving for years). Those signs are everywhere with LTNs (which is a nightmare). I simply did not notice them being changed. In fact on Google maps, the sign was a of "Controlled Zone" and they swapped this sign for their "Pedestrian" sign to what feels like 'overnight':
https://maps.app.goo.gl/vaQJdnsj9eAnEwXD8
I feel that is so sneaky - like swapping a 40MPH that's been there for years to a 30MPH overnight without warning.

Good point, I would need to have a "double or quits" mindset. I'm just so annoyed with Haringey that I want to fight them.

Thank you for your thoughts.
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JoeyBloggs

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Re: Haringey PCN 53 New Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2024, 07:32:56 pm »
Quote from: Neil B on March 22, 2024, 05:52:51 am
I'm gonna guess that you were told on pepipoo that the wording concerning issue of a charge certificate is flawed - and has since been corrected, enhancing your chances of winning on that alone?

I haven't posted on Pepipoo because the site was down - but I was a member and was doing research there for my initial appeal. Then when I received their rejection, the letter is missing text on the right hand side, so I thought is invalid.
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JoeyBloggs

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Re: Haringey PCN 53 New Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2024, 07:38:32 pm »
Quote from: Neil B on March 22, 2024, 06:03:01 am
Quote from: JoeyBloggs on March 21, 2024, 11:13:17 pm
the page on the right with their own photos that don't relate:
[3. Their rejection letters large photos show the opposite direction of my travel and the other shows an example that's an incorrect section of the alleged incident. So again, is their evidence invalid?

I've attached the map showing what I mean with number 2 and 3 above:
Map - Click here
I don't really understand what you mean and your map appears flawed.
It shouldn't be possible to enter the same ped zone twice???

Sorry if I didn't explain clearly.
I was driving down the route as shown via the green arrow.
My photos show what I would see from a driving position.
I entered the first pedestrian zone onto Gladstone Avenue.
Then I entered ANOTHER second pedestrian zone onto Lymington Avenue.
So I was fined twice in one motion.

But Haringey's photos are not showing the driving viewpoint - the Lymington Avenue red arrow shows the direction of their photo, which, on the back of those signs are NOT pedestrian signs.
Then their other photo on Gladstone Avenue is in a totally different part of the road, not from where I was driving into.

Hope that makes sense, if not, let us know.

Thank you for your time.
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JoeyBloggs

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Re: Haringey PCN 53 New Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2024, 07:49:05 pm »
Quote from: Hippocrates on March 22, 2024, 12:08:05 pm
@JoeyBloggs:  the wording is wrong.  They cannot serve a charge certificate 28 days from the date of the PCN. I am happy to represent you at the Tribunal. PM me if you wish to take me up on my offer.

PCN is unenforceable.

I bring a collateral challenge on the ground that it does not comply with the mandatory requirement of section 4(a)(v) of, and paragraph 5(2)(a) of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003.


https://bit.ly/2ALghSS

Adjudications-Key cases  149-161.  I represented in no 160 and had another won recently because they did not adduce any evidence: 2230567864.

**********

By the way, because of us, they have now realised their error and fixed the problem.  But, yours is a straightforward case.

Hi Hippocrates,
That sounds amazing! Thank you for helping. I wouldn't want to trouble you much, I will PM you.
Apart from this flaw, would any of my points in the original appeal have any weight?

Cheers,
JB
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Hippocrates

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Re: Haringey PCN 53 New Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2024, 07:49:21 pm »
As I said, the PCNs are unenforceable. This would be the main thrust when registering the appeal.  PM sent.  I will advise what to write.  The physical aspects can follow later.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2024, 07:52:25 pm by Hippocrates »
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How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

JoeyBloggs

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Re: Haringey PCN 53 New Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2024, 08:15:43 pm »
Thank you - PM replied.

JB
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Hippocrates

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Re: Haringey PCN 53 New Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2024, 09:06:10 pm »
Game on.
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How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

JoeyBloggs

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Re: Haringey PCN 53 New Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2024, 07:55:23 pm »
Just to update this, with the kind help of Hippocrates on the technicality of wording, we submitted to PATAS / London Tribunals, and Haringey dropped the case!

Thanks again Hippocrates :-)
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Hippocrates

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Re: Haringey PCN 53 New Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2024, 09:13:41 pm »
Quote from: JoeyBloggs on June 13, 2024, 07:55:23 pm
Just to update this, with the kind help of Hippocrates on the technicality of wording, we submitted to PATAS / London Tribunals, and Haringey dropped the case!

Thanks again Hippocrates :-)

My pleasure.  Please email me the details as I am immersed in stuff at present!
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How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

JoeyBloggs

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Re: Haringey PCN 53 New Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2024, 10:19:44 pm »
Quote from: Hippocrates on June 13, 2024, 09:13:41 pm
Quote from: JoeyBloggs on June 13, 2024, 07:55:23 pm
Just to update this, with the kind help of Hippocrates on the technicality of wording, we submitted to PATAS / London Tribunals, and Haringey dropped the case!

Thanks again Hippocrates :-)

My pleasure.  Please email me the details as I am immersed in stuff at present!

Hey - I think I already emailed you a while ago - 24/04/24 9:50AM - I just forgot to update the forum.

I stupidly got a separate PCN for parking in a 'Pay by phone' bay which I thought the whole road was residential (of which I have a permit). I don't mind paying the £40 but might start a new thread.

Cheers,

JB
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