Author Topic: A new beginning  (Read 4870 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3073
  • Karma: +78/-3
    • View Profile
Re: A new beginning
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2023, 11:50:46 pm »
What is a police force going to do with an IP address? As I understand it they would need a warrant to obtain the subscriber's details from an ISP, they can't just call up Vodafone or BT and get a name and address.

And not being funny but even if the police identified an OP from an IP address, so what? If an OP comes here and we identify a defence worth running (faulty TRO, signs not giving adequate guidance, 1st NIP posted on day 15 or whatever else) there is nothing the police could find on here that would help them. At most, they'd realise there isn't a reasonable prospect of conviction and they'd just let it go.

If we identify that there is no defence worth running, the OP is no worse off than before (after all as far as the police are concerned they had enough evidence to get a conviction all along).

CaF uses the ad revenue to pay for hosting the site, which effectively costs nothing at all to run (aside from a nominal yearly fee for the domain and SSL functionality).

We could pay a monthly fee to remove the CaF ads and then put our own ads up to generate ad revenue to pay the fees, but it seems like a lot of faffing about for no real benefit.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

sparxy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 41
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • [im00000-23421a]
    • View Profile
Re: A new beginning
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2023, 08:07:51 pm »
Well, people are asking for legal advice with their IP address. IP address is personal data under GDPR and bearing in mind police forces used to scrape the old Pepipoo (hence using images for police forces) no doubt they will eventually do the same here.

There's a reason why if you are taking legal advice from a solicitor you don't send an anonymous transcript of the conversation to the police to see if they can match it up with an existing case.

But if you think the data on this site has no value either to the admins or anyone else, whether it be the police or someone trying to make money that is your decision. CaF obviously see value in the data which is why they monetise the links.

I'd argue that a lot of things on this forum are "slam dunks", i.e. even if the opposing party knows of it, there's nothing they can do as they've already buggered it up. What cp said.

Third parties cannot see IPs of users, so unless there's a data leak (which is *more likely* on PPP, rather than here), or the police request data from the site owners (which, being run by an off shore company, on servers in the USA, would probably be an impressive undertaking for otherwise minor traffic offences), then no one is seeing them...

What data may identify users, is data that has been posted on PPP for many years. Offence dates and times, copies of NIPs and location of offence, etc. Private parking companies and councils are also at it. That's data that you can't leave out of a post, because you need it to provide advice.

"CaF see value in the data" - bollocks. Monetising text or links is not a new concept, and not isolated to the data posted on this forum. There is almost certainly no human interaction, or any consideration (by the algorithm) of what the data on this forum actually is... (i'd be interested if it monetised the word bollocks).

notmeatloaf

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: A new beginning
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2023, 11:32:58 pm »
What is a police force going to do with an IP address? As I understand it they would need a warrant to obtain the subscriber's details from an ISP, they can't just call up Vodafone or BT and get a name and address.

And not being funny but even if the police identified an OP from an IP address, so what? If an OP comes here and we identify a defence worth running (faulty TRO, signs not giving adequate guidance, 1st NIP posted on day 15 or whatever else) there is nothing the police could find on here that would help them. At most, they'd realise there isn't a reasonable prospect of conviction and they'd just let it go.

If we identify that there is no defence worth running, the OP is no worse off than before (after all as far as the police are concerned they had enough evidence to get a conviction all along).

CaF uses the ad revenue to pay for hosting the site, which effectively costs nothing at all to run (aside from a nominal yearly fee for the domain and SSL functionality).

We could pay a monthly fee to remove the CaF ads and then put our own ads up to generate ad revenue to pay the fees, but it seems like a lot of faffing about for no real benefit.
It's very easy to Geolocate an IP address sufficiently to link it to an existing case.

To be honest I'm a bit surprised at your cavalier approach to user data but if you aren't concerned about having no control over website security or data then the current solution should be fine. I would definitely recommend speaking to anyone who was around when it because clear the police are/were scraping data from Pepipoo en masse to see if allowing even easier access this time is a good idea.

Maybe users won't mind posting knowing police forces are analysing every post on the site.

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3073
  • Karma: +78/-3
    • View Profile
Re: A new beginning
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2023, 11:49:51 pm »
To be honest I'm a bit surprised at your cavalier approach to user data but if you aren't concerned about having no control over website security or data then the current solution should be fine. I would definitely recommend speaking to anyone who was around when it because clear the police are/were scraping data from Pepipoo en masse to see if allowing even easier access this time is a good idea.

Maybe users won't mind posting knowing police forces are analysing every post on the site.
Scraping data from a public website is something anyone can do anyway, and has nothing to do with security?

I don't know what you mean by even easier access, to the extent that any security is required, I'm sure this website has better security than pepipoo.

It was either you or someone else who pointed out that with modern techniques, it would be child's play for anyone with the right skills to get anyone's pepipoo password (including presumably Fredd's password) and have a look at whatever they wanted.

To get IP addresses UK police forces would need to launch an international investigation in partnership with US authorities, which makes zero sense for anything but the most serious of crimes. If we were talking about murder, people smuggling, importing machine guns or terrorism then sure, they'd get warrants in the US in no time. For minor traffic offences, not so much.

I'm sure you could come up with some super-duper security solutions that could make this website an impenetrable vault, but it seems to me that you've got a solution looking for a problem.

And frankly I think the idea that the police sit around all day trawling forums like this one is for the birds, after all there's people who openly advertise drugs for sale on facebook or gumtree and nothing seems to get done about that.

As far as I recall, the one guy who got sent to prison was the one who bragged about perverting the course of justice on the forum, and it was a forum member who actually reported him to the police.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2023, 10:19:23 am by cp8759 »
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

notmeatloaf

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: A new beginning
« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2023, 10:13:07 am »
You're forgetting how much more manpower the police put into prosecuting motorists then drug dealers.

Anyway, ultimately it's your choice. I think it is unwise to rely on a one man band in Illinois but you're right in that comparing it to the old forums this is still better. If you'd like assistance setting it up on your own hosting the offer is still there, takes all of 15 minutes to do and IMO will futureproof the site a lot better.

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 733
  • Karma: +10/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: A new beginning
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2023, 01:50:57 pm »
I have not read all of this thread but will be very sorry to see pepipoo go.  I am not interested in any alleged machinations on the part of some members who have privately expressed them to me.  I am here simply to fight tickets and can only say:  Viva pepipoo.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
Winner Winner x 1 View List

typefish

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: A new beginning
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2023, 02:15:42 pm »
Anyway, ultimately it's your choice. I think it is unwise to rely on a one man band in Illinois but you're right in that comparing it to the old forums this is still better. If you'd like assistance setting it up on your own hosting the offer is still there, takes all of 15 minutes to do and IMO will futureproof the site a lot better.

In order to allow FTLA to be hosted in a manner that is wholly fault tolerant in-house, shall we say - i.e. the use of multiple hosting providers as well as somehow securing the right for multiple people to have access to take control of a domain if needs be, this would take far longer than 15 minutes.

As someone who does this professionally, it isn't yet worth it for something like FTLA - I would reckon that what we have here is definitely effective for the moment.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2023, 02:17:55 pm by typefish »

Tikli Chestikov

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: A new beginning
« Reply #52 on: September 10, 2023, 04:07:45 pm »
What is a police force going to do with an IP address? As I understand it they would need a warrant to obtain the subscriber's details from an ISP, they can't just call up Vodafone or BT and get a name and address.

Plod can obtain the name associated with the account tied to the IP address at the time the words were posted via a warrant as you rightly surmise.

But here's the thing.  Just because cp8759 pays the bill for his/her internet access, it doesn't mean he/she posted the bad words.  He/she simply says, there are x people in my house using my internet, it wasn't me.  And Plod have to go away with their tails between their legs.

Equally, and here's a real world example, I allow my internet to be accessed by my neighbour via wifi (I've given her the SSID and password) - she's on her own, works hard but has next to no money and can't afford her own internet access.

What she does with it is down to her (I've told her no video streaming during the day when I need my internet for work).....but other than that, if she posts on Twitter that she wants to nuke the UK Government and the trail comes back to me, I'll tell Plod to go forth and multiply, not my problem.

And all of that is before you get into VPN usage.


cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3073
  • Karma: +78/-3
    • View Profile
Re: A new beginning
« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2023, 06:21:02 pm »
Plod can obtain the name associated with the account tied to the IP address at the time the words were posted via a warrant as you rightly surmise.
They can only get an IP address if the US authorities cooperate, which is a high bar.

Just because cp8759 pays the bill for his/her internet access, it doesn't mean he/she posted the bad words.
To be honest, I'm a public figure and if plod wants to have a word, I'm easy to find.

As we don't allow anything dishonest or illegal on this forum, I'm really not fussed.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2023, 07:53:26 pm by cp8759 »
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 733
  • Karma: +10/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: A new beginning
« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2023, 07:47:59 pm »
Well, at the age of ca. twice cp's, my reputation(s) precede me so I have abandoned caring anymore. People try it on with me as per the other day when I was told I could not film outside a Town Hall.  I simply replied it was a public place and could film a policeman indulged in any action if I wanted to or words to that effect.  Molon lave.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2023, 07:50:36 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"

Tikli Chestikov

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: A new beginning
« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2023, 04:41:27 pm »
Plod can obtain the name associated with the account tied to the IP address at the time the words were posted via a warrant as you rightly surmise.
They can only get an IP address if the US authorities cooperate, which is a high bar.

I was thinking along the lines of your keyboard warrior who gets his/her internet access via, say, Virgin Media, a UK outfit.

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3073
  • Karma: +78/-3
    • View Profile
Re: A new beginning
« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2023, 04:47:55 pm »
I was thinking along the lines of your keyboard warrior who gets his/her internet access via, say, Virgin Media, a UK outfit.
But how would plod know a user's ISP in the first place?
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

d612

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Karma: +0/-1
    • View Profile
Re: A new beginning
« Reply #57 on: October 04, 2023, 06:40:21 pm »
In the UK blocks of IP addresses are issued for use to certain ISP's
This is all public knowledge
So I can go on to some website and it will tell me that my IP is XXXXX and hence it also knows the ISP I'm connected through, as the IP address is within a block issued to ISP BB.
At this point all the public websites get it wrong on my approx location as geo-location from and IP address in the UK is next to impossible in public.

however if the police really want to....
They know the IP address from "demanding" it of the website/forum hosting/admin.
So now they know the ISP.
The police would go to the ISP and "suggest" that they might like to supply the home address of the connection that was connected to the particular IP address in question at the relevant time. All UK ISP's are required to keep such logs for 1 year.
They then go to the property and equally "suggest" to the owner/resident that they might like to cooperate on who was using the connection at the time. alternatively all computers and phone will be seized for forensics investigation if they want to be difficult.

Now some ISP use CGNAT (lots of phone based internet connections) which is where a single IP address is shared out among multiple users at the same time where the switching between users as the user "uses" the connection is done so fast that it invisible to users. This does make things more difficult to nail down which is the exact connection needed at the instant of time.

Obviously it gets even more complex where you have VPN's......


Southpaw82

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 248
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: A new beginning
« Reply #58 on: October 04, 2023, 07:23:24 pm »
however if the police really want to....
They know the IP address from "demanding" it of the website/forum hosting/admin.

And how will the UK police demand anything from me?

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3073
  • Karma: +78/-3
    • View Profile
Re: A new beginning
« Reply #59 on: October 05, 2023, 01:32:45 am »
They know the IP address from "demanding" it of the website/forum hosting/admin.
No, they really don't. Lots of people seem to be making this assumption but this is where the argument falls flat on its face, nobody is going to give anyone any IP addresses simply because someone "demands" it.

This being the case, the rest of your argument simply falls flat on its face.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order