Author Topic: PCNat Horfield Leisure Centre, Bristol issued by Civil Enforcement  (Read 254 times)

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andybristol

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During 4 days as an inpatient at Southmead Hospital, undergoing tests for a suspected mini heart attack, my wife/son parked in the leisure centre situated alongside the hospital, of which we are members and regular attendees. There is a sign in the car park limiting stay in the leisure centre to 3 hours; I know that by the letter of the law, they should not have used the car park, but I advised that as members of the gym, this should be ok as I didnt think that an ANPR system was in operation. Just want some advice as to who I should contact first to ask for a sympathetic response....the Manager of the leisure centre or appeal directly to Civil Enforcement?

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stamfordman

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Re: PCNat Horfield Leisure Centre, Bristol issued by Civil Enforcement
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2025, 02:28:24 pm »
This is a private parking PCN so have asked for move to right section.


b789

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Re: PCNat Horfield Leisure Centre, Bristol issued by Civil Enforcement
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2025, 03:15:52 pm »
Show us the actual Notice to Keeper (NtK) received. What is the actual alleged contravention? I'm assuming an overstay because you mention you were not aware of ANPR.

READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

andybristol

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Re: PCNat Horfield Leisure Centre, Bristol issued by Civil Enforcement
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2025, 04:01:16 pm »
3 separate PCNs attached...thanks

RichardW

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Re: PCNat Horfield Leisure Centre, Bristol issued by Civil Enforcement
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2025, 04:07:23 pm »
Please post up the other page(s) of the PCNs

It looks like 2 separate vehicles - are you RK of both, or is one you son's?

andybristol

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Re: PCNat Horfield Leisure Centre, Bristol issued by Civil Enforcement
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2025, 04:13:40 pm »
i am the RK of both. thanks

andybristol

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Re: PCNat Horfield Leisure Centre, Bristol issued by Civil Enforcement
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2025, 01:35:21 pm »
Should i contact Civil Enforcement or the manager of the Leisure Centre ?

RichardW

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Re: PCNat Horfield Leisure Centre, Bristol issued by Civil Enforcement
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2025, 03:31:32 pm »
No harm in trying the leisure centre, but as the drivers weren't actually there, I don't expect much

The parking co will have zero compassion!

Show us the back of the PCNs, there might be a technical get out.

ixxy

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Re: PCNat Horfield Leisure Centre, Bristol issued by Civil Enforcement
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2025, 09:47:23 am »
"The parking co will have zero compassion."

Of course they won't, they're doing what they are contracted to do by the site owner, which in this case is highly likely to have been driven by people visiting the hospital and using the leisure centre car park. Given its Excel parking and they are in deep trouble after their 5 minute parking fiasco they certainly won't cancel it and I doubt the leisure centre will either.

b789

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Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

andybristol

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Re: PCNat Horfield Leisure Centre, Bristol issued by Civil Enforcement
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2025, 01:46:23 pm »
Reverse of pcn attached as requested, Richard

andybristol

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Re: PCNat Horfield Leisure Centre, Bristol issued by Civil Enforcement
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2025, 10:32:26 pm »
Any advice welcomed on how I should approach any appeal to Civil enforcement ? Thank you

b789

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Re: PCNat Horfield Leisure Centre, Bristol issued by Civil Enforcement
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2025, 12:13:50 pm »
Before we advise on what you should do next, you have to tell us whether you are prepared to fight this all the way up to defending a debt claim from CEL should the initial appeal and subsequent POPLA appeals fail (likely).

I do not want to waste my time or yours if you are not up for the fight. If this were a single PCN, it would be a no-brainer. However, as it is for three PCNS, CEL may be more likely to go al the way with this.

Having said that, you would have a very good chance of successfully defending a claim. It would be a protracted affair lasting the good part of a year. We would advise every step of the way and you would learn a lot about the civil legal process.

The main reason I think you have a chance should it go all the way to a court claim is because of the following reasoning:

The Notice to Keeper (NtK) is not fully compliant with all the requirements of PoFA. Any initial appeal to CEL would be rejected, irrespective of the reasoning. No money in it for them. However, the secondary process of appeal, POPLA, in this case, is not likely to have much success either. This is why I say that it is likely to progress all the way to a county court claim by CEL for the money.

PoFA Compliance – Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i)

It is important to set realistic expectations regarding how this particular PoFA point may be received at the appeals stage. While the Notice to Keeper fails to properly comply with paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA), POPLA assessors are not legally trained professionals. They are not judges or barristers, and their decisions are not binding on either party. POPLA assessors often approach cases using a lay interpretation, and where statutory language is loosely mirrored — even if inaccurately — they sometimes take the view that the “spirit” or general intent of the provision has been met.

However, this is not how legislation should be applied. Paragraph 9 of PoFA uses the word “must” repeatedly. The use of "must" denotes a mandatory statutory requirement, not a discretionary guideline. The Act does not allow for implication, interpretation, or approximation. Either each prescribed element has been complied with, or it has not. There is no scope within the statute for a notice to be “mostly compliant” or “good enough.”

PoFA compliance is a binary issue. A Parking Charge Notice (PCN) either complies with every required element of the Act, or it does not. To suggest otherwise undermines the very structure and purpose of statutory safeguards. Using a common-sense analogy: a person cannot be partially or even mostly pregnant. They either are, or they are not. The same applies here — a PCN cannot be partially or mostly PoFA-compliant. It either is, or it is not. And in this case, it is not.

While POPLA may consider the language "sufficiently compliant" due to a perceived reflection of the required intent, this should not be considered a pragmatic or justifiable approach. Such leniency defeats the point of having a statutory framework designed to limit liability for vehicle keepers unless certain strict conditions are met. Courts, by contrast, are more rigorous in applying legislation and are more likely to rule that every paragraph must be fully complied with for keeper liability to be established, as long as it is argued clearly and accurately.

Suffice it to say, that I've never had any claim that uses this argument to actually reach a hearing in court. Even if it had been used successfully, any decision would not be binding, or even persuasive in future cases. It would only hold significant weight if it were a point of appeal agreed by a circuit judge.

In summary, although this argument may not succeed at POPLA due to their informal assessment criteria, it would carry significantly more weight in a court of law, where statutory interpretation is properly applied.

So, are you prepared to fight this all the way or not?
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

andybristol

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Re: PCNat Horfield Leisure Centre, Bristol issued by Civil Enforcement
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2025, 02:37:39 pm »
Thank you for your concise reply. I suppose my decision whether to appeal with the possibility of this ending up in a court of law would depend upon whether it's advisable for me to defend myself as any legal advice would probably outweigh the cost of paying the PCNs. Much appreciated

jfollows

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Re: PCNat Horfield Leisure Centre, Bristol issued by Civil Enforcement
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2025, 02:41:55 pm »
This forum will give you better, free legal advice than just about anything you could pay for, assume you will not be paying for any sort of advice. If you’re not happy with this idea, then say so and opt out.
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