Author Topic: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before  (Read 255 times)

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asmith93

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PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« on: February 17, 2024, 02:27:16 pm »
So I received a PCN (Parking Charge Notice) for parking my car half on a curb (no double or single yellow line present) just away from parking spot.

The night before however there was a random car parked when I had been out and I could not use my space. It happens so frequently and I don't want to take up someone else space. So I parked there. I could not move my car in the morning when the car had left as I was working and could only do it in the late afternoon. I have sent an appeal with a photo of the car parked in my spot in addition to several other times that this has happened.

I know that they can be sneaky and try to skirt around this so just want some advice on how best to navigate this based on lets say worst case scenario.

Thanks :) 

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DWMB2

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2024, 04:17:12 pm »
We need some more information to be able to help you. For starters:
  • A copy of the notice you have received. All pages, personal info redacted, all other info intact
  • Photos of the signage at the site
  • A copy of exactly what you submitted as your appeal
  • You mention 'your' space, is this where you live? If so, what are the parking arrangements? What, exactly, does your lease say about parking?
The fact someone else was parked where they should not be does not on its own provide a particularly compelling defence, this case is about how your vehicle was parked, not whether others were breaching the terms.

asmith93

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2024, 02:52:06 pm »
Hello, Apologies sure here are the updates:

1. Here is the photo of the notice the charge is 'Parked Outside the Confines of a Marked Bay'. Thing is in the tenancy lease I have we have set parking bays assigned to us and therefore shouldn't park in any other bay other than ours hence why when someone parked in my spot, I parked away an not in someone else's assigned bay.
2. Here is the photo of the signage that is on site
3. Annoyingly I seem I unable to get my response as I had to write it on a form and I have not got a transcript of it. On another post I will add what I put on my evidence email along with the photos I sent.
4. Sorry for not being clearer. Yes I am a tenant in one of the flats. It is a development built up of a number of apartment blocks each with their own parking bays assigned to them. This is started in my tenancy agreement. The agreement also states that we should only use our parking bays.

In my (probably very naïve) mind. It's very hard not to 'break the rules' where the only parking bay you are assigned is occupied by someone else. As you can see from the metadata it was very late at night I arrived back so parked out of the way and not someone else's spot. I had a lot of work so could not move the car back until the evening (which is probably the only mistake I believe I made as I also did not take a photo of the car that was still there in the morning; I can see from my apartment building).

Thanks, Alex

asmith93

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2024, 03:05:41 pm »
Here is the text I wrote in the email submitting my evidence along with the evidence its self might have to do it in 2 parts. As I explained I could not retrieve the text I submitted on the appeal.

To whom it may concern,

Please find attached jpeg images in support of the above appeal submitted via your website. 3 photos are of cars parked in my space. One is dated 5th February at night, hence why I could not park my car in my spot as explained in the appeal form.

Also please see images dated 4th February and 16th February of different cars also parked in my spot as explained this happens rather regularly and has prevented me from parking in my spot multiple times.

As explained in the appeal form, please can the charge dropped in light of the fact that I was unable to park in my spot due to unauthorised vehicle parking in my space (364) overnight and having to park elsewhere as safely as possible (please note the spot I chose was not double yellow lined).

Regards,

asmith93

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2024, 03:06:04 pm »
Batch 2 of photos

b789

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2024, 04:24:41 pm »
What happened when you complained to PPM about them failing to manage the parking and them "renting" out your allocated space to an "unauthorised" vehicle? What did the managing agent of the property say when you did likewise?

Terrible signs. You need to have a read of your tenancy agreement/lease and note what it says or doesn't say about parking. PPM are allowing anyone to park in your space as long as they agree to pay £100 for the privilege.

The signage also breaches the IPC CoP, the CRA 2015 and invalidates their ability to rely on PoFA 2012.

PoFA 2(2) and 2(3)(b)(i) and (ii) are not satisfied as those signs fail to provide "adequate notice" of the parking charge, and fail to bring the charge to the notice of drivers who park vehicles on the relevant land. However, you may have thrown the ability to rely on using that as it would appear you have admitted to being the driver.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

IPC CoP v9 Schedule 1 states: "The size of the text on the sign must be appropriate for the location of the sign and should be clearly readable by a Motorist having regard to the likely position of the Motorist in relation to the sign." This suggests that the readability of the text is a key consideration, particularly from the perspective of someone inside a vehicle.

This means that the text on the sign should be sized and positioned in such a way that it can be easily read and understood by a motorist while they are in their vehicle, considering where they are likely to be in relation to the sign. In other words, the text should be visible and comprehensible from the typical vantage points of a motorist approaching, passing by, or parking near the sign.

https://irp.cdn-website.com/262226a6/files/uploaded/IPC%20Code%20of%20PracticeV9%20V4.pdf

As far as the CRA is concerned, there are several abuses of the Act. However, at this initial stage, they are not likely to even be considered by PPM. Some of the CRA breaches will require reference to the landowner contract with PPM. For now, CRA 49, 50, 54, 55, 62, 63, 67, 68 and 69 apply.

In simple terms, those signs tell anyone able to read them that PPM have the right to rent out your demised parking space for the sum of £100. For example the owner of a very expensive car could decide that they can park their vehicle in your space, away from the public road, for the discounted sum of £60 if they pay the charge within 40 days of receiving the notice.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/contents/enacted

There may also be a defence that the lease has supremacy of contract, especially if the landowner or their agents failed to adhere to the requirement of The Landlord & Tenant Act 1987 Section 37. This would need to be assessed against the master lease.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1987/31/section/37
 
Unfortunately, you are dealing with an unregulated private parking company and the IPC. As long as you feel aggrieved enough about this injustice, you are most likely going to have to wait until this goes to court. PPC and the IPC are likely to ignore all the arguments above as they are basically a cabal of ex-clampers who rely on their victims capitulating under the pressure of their threat tactics.

For now, Plan A, a complaint to the Managing Agent or the landowner is your first port of call. Plans B and C, appeals to PPM and the IPCs IAS would be next but don't hold your breath for ay positive results from those. Plan D, going to court and letting a judge decide whether you owe PPM a debt or not is the most likely way that you would see this off. Many of these shyster firms will often discontinue before it ever reaches a judge, knowing that they are likely to have a hard time justifying their claim if it is robustly defended. They just hope that their victim is going to capitulate once they receive a county court claim.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2024, 04:34:02 pm by b789 »

andy_foster

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2024, 05:07:01 pm »
What happened when you complained to PPM about them failing to manage the parking and them "renting" out your allocated space to an "unauthorised" vehicle? What did the managing agent of the property say when you did likewise?

"Begging the question" is bad form.

Quote
Terrible signs.

Indeed.

Quote
You need to have a read of your tenancy agreement/lease and note what it says or doesn't say about parking. PPM are allowing anyone to park in your space as long as they agree to pay £100 for the privilege.

I disagree. Such parking is clearly a breach of the conditions. The fact that they try to paint it as the price of the contract, and therefore dis-apply the doctrine of penalties, is immaterial to the proper construction.

Quote
There may also be a defence that the lease has supremacy of contract, especially if the landowner or their agents failed to adhere to the requirement of The Landlord & Tenant Act 1987 Section 37. This would need to be assessed against the master lease.

The driver may well have superiority [in law] over his own marked parking bay. I would suggest that it would take some amount of creativity to construe that into a positive right to park elsewhere, although it would be somewhat rash to dismiss the terms of the right to the marked bay out of hand.

The driver's right to park has clearly been frustrated, but it is difficult to see how that could translate into a positive right to park outwith his marked bay.  However [in court], the circumstances would appear to be very relevant to the question of commercial justification. A £100 charge for breach of terms of parking is clearly a penalty unless it can be saved by commercial justification - IOW is it proportionate to a legitimate right being protected by the clause. I would suggest that the PPC would struggle to justify a charge of £100 for parking where he was not causing a problem as a direct result of their own failure to protect his marked bay with a scheme that is ostensibly intended primarily to protect such bays.

It would be far more difficult to appeal a judge's decision that there was no/insufficient commercial justification than it would a judge's decision that frustration of the ability to park in his own bay resulted in a positive right to park wherever he chose.

Quote
Unfortunately, you are dealing with an unregulated private parking company and the IPC. As long as you feel aggrieved enough about this injustice, you are most likely going to have to wait until this goes to court. PPC and the IPC are likely to ignore all the arguments above as they are basically a cabal of ex-clampers who rely on their victims capitulating under the pressure of their threat tactics.

For now, Plan A, a complaint to the Managing Agent or the landowner is your first port of call. Plans B and C, appeals to PPM and the IPCs IAS would be next but don't hold your breath for ay positive results from those. Plan D, going to court and letting a judge decide whether you owe PPM a debt or not is the most likely way that you would see this off. Many of these shyster firms will often discontinue before it ever reaches a judge, knowing that they are likely to have a hard time justifying their claim if it is robustly defended. They just hope that their victim is going to capitulate once they receive a county court claim.

This
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.
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b789

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2024, 05:25:23 pm »
IANAL so I defer to your experience in these matters. We would need to know what the lease/AST actually says or doesn't say about parking to know whether PPM have any right to issue a charge for parking at the location. If the lease allows or does not specifically prohibit parking in the manner shown, it then requires clarification with regards to the LTA whether the MA had the right to appoint PPM to have any right to issue charges.

I also think we would need to see the contract between PPM and the landowner/MA to understand exactly what services they are supposed to provide with regards to protecting the demised parking spaces. Whilst that does not defend the parking outside of the demised bay, it could reveal frustration of contract.

What rights, if any, does the leaseholder/tenant have to use of common area for themselves and/or their invited guests?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2024, 05:34:46 pm by b789 »

asmith93

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2024, 12:12:47 am »
Thanks for the advice! Very new to all of this so need some time to digest all of this :)

Regarding the tenancy agreement, I had another look and it only states this:

Car Parking Space
21.1 To park private vehicle(s) only at the Premises. 
21.2 To park in the space allocated to the Premises, if the Tenant is allocated a car parking space

However the badges that are provided to us do have a specific bay number on them that corresponds to the specific parking bay.

I have one of these stuck on the windscreen at all times. In relation to visitors, they can go into a visitor parking bay or another bay that has the same number, they must have that on display at all times. We are meant to have 2 parking bays one inside a shared garage and that one outside, however contractors are using the garage as their site office so really at the moment only have one parking space.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2024, 12:15:58 am by asmith93 »

b789

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2024, 05:47:03 am »
Can you ask your landlord for a copy of the “head lease”?

From the very limited information in your tenancy agreement, there is no mention that you will be subject to a fettering of your parking rights by a third party contractor. Is there any mention that you are obliged to display a permit to park, either in your own bay or anywhere on the property?

If the landlord or their MA has reduced the number of available parking spaces and have not provided alternative space, that is a frustration of contract if they have then given their third party PPC free reign to issue parking charges to the tenants due to their failure to provide alternative parking space.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2024, 05:54:44 am by b789 »

H C Andersen

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2024, 07:53:28 am »
Do you pay a maintenance charge under your lease? If so, what does it provide?

This means that the text on the sign should be sized and positioned in such a way that it can be easily read and understood by a motorist while they are in their vehicle,

Is not correct in law. The CoPs do make provision for signs to be so read by disabled drivers, but there's no suggestion this applies here.

The PPC is not letting your space for £100. A parking charge is not a charge or licence to park - the Beavis case which makes this perfectly clear.

Let's see your maintenance/management agreement pl. Residential developments like yours often have limited companies which regulate common affairs, incl discharging many of the landowner's rights and liabilities to tenants under their leases. If you have such an entity, then ultimately you would sue them for whatever losses you incurred by virtue of the actions of their agents i.e. the PPC.
In simple terms: they are obligated to you to maintain your use of your parking space. You pay them to do this. How they do this is their choice. If they want to employ this PPC then they are ultimately responsible for ensuring that they achieve the required outcomes. But in this case they haven't. That's not your fault and no liability can fall to you.
For me the important points are: how are these common affairs managed; are you charged for these services; what are you entitled to expect in return?
The answers will be in your lease/tenancy agreement and/or a separate set of Ts and Cs.

b789

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2024, 09:32:35 am »
So… if I owned an expensive car and I did not want to park it on the street, I couldn’t just drive into a parking space at this property and plan on paying £60 for the privilege? It’s just a scenario but I don’t read anything in the posted terms that stops me.

In fact, I could read the following as an invitation to do precisely that:

BY PARKING OR REMAINING AT THIS SITE OTHERWISE THAN IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE ABOVE, YOU THE DRIVER, ARE AGREEING TO THE FOLLOWING CONTRACTUAL TERMS:

You agree to pay consideration in the form of a 'parking charge' in the sum of £100, to be paid within 28 days of issue. This is reduced to £60 if paid within 14 days.

I see an offer, consideration and I can accept it. A contract.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2024, 09:37:59 am by b789 »

andy_foster

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2024, 09:47:35 am »
"The manufacture of a five pronged implement for manual digging results in a fork even if the manufacturer, unfamiliar with the English language, insists that he intended to make and has made a spade." -  Street v Mountford [1985] 1 A.C. 809, 819 per Lord Templeman.

The issue with the "offer" is that "the above" are the "CONDITIONS OF PARKING" and otherwise than in accordance with the conditions means breach.

Presumably deferring in the context of post #8 means deferring for a period of 14 hours?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2024, 09:56:03 am by andy_foster »
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b789

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2024, 10:14:44 am »
By agreeing to park “otherwise” than the conditions stipulated, there is an offer to remain as long as I will pay £60 within 14 days of the event.

Anyone can park anywhere on the estate, not necessarily in a marked bay, as long as they pay the charge. I don’t see any way of stopping anyone taking up that offer, should they agree to it.

Anyway, the OP still has a good chance of winning this battle, irrespective of the legal nuances we may be arguing about. They are dealing with a firm that is going to rely on the roboclaim practice of trying to wear down the victim.


At the end of the day, they will probably be dealing with the intellectually malnourished likes of DCB Legal, BW Legal, Gladstones et al.

DWMB2

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2024, 10:57:06 am »
In amongst all the debate above, have we established whether or not the OP has spoken to the management agent for the property (or whoever has hired the parking company)?

If not this would be a good first step, and if he can convince them to intervene, by far the easiest way to resolve the matter.