Author Topic: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before  (Read 255 times)

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asmith93

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2024, 10:38:33 pm »
Hello thanks for all the advice above :) Been pretty hectic so have only a thin slither of time to respond.

The estate agents (who act as the management of the property) have said this:



I am really sorry I am in no position to help with the complaint. As much as I understand how incredibly frustrating the parking company are, they are external from the management company at Winterthur Way so they won't listen to me any more than they will you.

All I can advise is should this happen again when someone is in your space please call the parking company on 02071 002929 immediately to inform them and give them the registration number of the vehicle in your space, they will then deal with this immediately.  Also inform them where you have parked so you do not get a ticket.

I think the last time we spoke about parking, the landlord didn't have any documents to show any links between.

I had a look online and saw the parking company is part of the IPC. I've found a bit on their website about appealing the parking charge https://www.theipc.info/motorist-advice#:~:text=Once%20you%20have%20received%20a,the%20'submit%20complaint'%20option.
Motorist Advice
Advice for motorists if they get a parking ticket
www.theipc.info
There might be something on there that will be of use.

I'm really sorry I couldn't be of much help!



I'm not sure if that means that there wasn't any contract signed between the landlord and the PPM or if that is just a guise for not bothering to look further into matter :/ I have replied re: the head lease and whether in the landlord's contract there is a specific number of parking bays stated. 

The apartment blocks are managed by someone else so I will try and get hold of them tomorrow to see if I can also get any headway from them. I am pretty sure they would be the ones that have hired them. Any advice on how I should approach them?

I have already appealed as explained but annoyingly could not find a transcript of the specifics of what I wrote, however they have sent a receipt confirming they have received it.

Also under my tenancy agreement I just pay a monthly rent to the estate agents. The only things that are extra are gas/elec internet etc, no specific mention of maintenance fee in my agreement with them.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2024, 10:41:47 pm by asmith93 »

H C Andersen

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2024, 04:32:54 pm »
Then I suggest you find out! What do they do with the money and WHY?

Nothing personal, but this must be the third similar current thread where owners appear to hand over money blithely to 'management' for unspecified purposes.

asmith93

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2024, 06:18:39 pm »
Hello,

I have contacted the estate agents regarding my rent and have yet to here back from them regarding the breakdown. I am also pushing them on trying to find specific in any agreement the landlord specifying number of parking bays and parking rights. Still waiting back on both currently.

In addition I have lodged a complaint with the block management company who confirmed that they contracted out the parking management to PPM.

The initial interaction from both block management and estate agents  was to separate responsibility and suggest to call PPM as soon as another incident happens.

In the early morning today, I returned home and found a maintenance vehicle parked in my spot. I called the number and no one answered. I filed a report to them and they responded as per the email chain attached.

H C Andersen

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2024, 08:32:10 pm »
The name of the 'block management company' please, and their company number(it should be on their correspondence).

asmith93

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2024, 02:13:04 pm »
The Block management company is Chaneys Chartered Surveyors with the company number 2473115.

I also just received a response on my appeal which was rejected as expected. I am curious as to whether there is any legislation/ text that comments on a duty of care a company must provide, in this specific circumstance being that they do not give adequate concessions when you're designated parking bay is being occupied.

Here is the text from the letter I received on PPM's appeal decision:

******

Thank you for your correspondence regarding the above Parking Charge Notice (PCN). We have considered your appeal carefully and take note of the points you have raised in mitigation; however, we have decided that your appeal has been rejected on the following grounds.

The signage at the site is clearly visible and the information on the signage informs the driver of the parking
conditions at the location. Signage is prominent throughout the parking area. Signage location, size, content
and font has been audited by the International Parking Community.

It is the driver’s responsibility to check for signage, check the legality and obtain any authorisation for parking before leaving their vehicle.

Your vehicle was observed at the time the parking charge notice was issued for parking outside the confines
of a marked bay. The photographic evidence supports the issue of the parking charge. Please refer to the
photographic evidence which can be viewed on www.payppm.co.uk.
The signage throughout the site, and visible from the position of parking, makes it clear that the restrictions
apply to all vehicles parked at this site and that if vehicles park otherwise than in accordance with the terms
a charge will be payable.

Having viewed the photographic evidence, the vehicle can be seen close to a sign stating the parking regulations. Signage clearly states that vehicles must display a valid permit in the front windscreen at all times
appropriate for the area in which you are parked and parking is not permitted anywhere outside of a
marked bay including in front of the garages.

Except for: 10minutes max on estate roadways.

The parking charge was clearly advertised and you were in possession of all the information needed to make a decision. The driver chose to park. In our view, this act, by the appellant, constituted acceptance of the offer to pay the charge and formed a binding contract between the parties. It would follow that there was no inherent unfairness in the way this agreement was reached.

We agree the circumstances are unfortunate, however, it is not in our remit to be able to remove a vehicle
parked otherwise than in accordance with the conditions. Thus meaning, if another vehicle is parked in
your space, we cannot offer immediate alternative parking. Even considering the circumstances, we cannot
allow authority to park outside the confines of a marked bay whatever the circumstances.

The best practice in this situation, if you cannot park in accordance with the parking regulations, is to park
off site. Whilst we agree this may be inconvenient it will not result in a PCN being issued.
Whilst we empathise with your situation, we cannot allow parking which is not in accordance with the
parking regulations, whatever the circumstances. By not enforcing the said issue the same situation will
likely happen more often.

The reasons you have put forward for parking in a clearly regulated parking area do not justify parking
otherwise than in accordance with the restrictions. You will appreciate that everyone has what they
regard as reasonable grounds for parking. The location is private land and as such there is a need to
ensure that only vehicles conforming to the advertised restrictions can park on site.

YOUR OPTIONS NOW ARE:

1. Pay the Parking Charge Notice. If you have made your appeal within 14 days of the issue date of
the PCN, you now have a further 14 days from the date of this communication to pay the reduced
rate of £60.00 per PCN. If you have appealed more than 14 days after the date of the issue of the
PCN, the full amount of £100 per PCN will be outstanding. The PCN will progress to debt recovery
28 days after our response date if the PCN remains unpaid.
• You can pay by visiting the website www.payppm.co.uk
• By phone, calling 0207 100 2929. Please have your debit/credit card details and the information in
this letter to hand.
• By post, sending a cheque or postal order made payable to Parking and Property Management Ltd
to the address at the bottom of this letter. Please ensure the PCN number is written on the reverse
of the cheque.

2. If you believe this decision is incorrect, you are entitled to appeal to the Independent Appeals
Service (IAS). The Independent Appeals Service provides an Alternative Dispute Resolution
scheme for disputes of this type. As you have complied with our internal appeals procedure you
may use, and we will engage with, the IAS standard Appeals Service providing you lodge an appeal
within 21 days of this rejection. To appeal, the IAS will need your parking charge number, your
vehicle registration and the date the charge was originally issued. For further information, please
visit www.theias.org. You must submit an IAS appeal for each PCN separately.

If you decide to use the Independent Appeals Service (IAS), the offer of a discount for early payment will
be withdrawn and the full parking charge of £100 per PCN will apply if your appeal is dismissed.
Please note that the Independent Adjudicator is unable to cancel a charge on grounds of mitigation and
the decision will be based on facts and evidence only.

N.B. If you appeal to the IAS and then subsequently pay the charge prior to that appeal being determined,
OR alternatively pay the charge then attempt to appeal, the appeal will be cancelled and you will not be
given a further opportunity to contest the charge.

Please allow 24 hours before appealing to the IAS to ensure they have received all relevant information
regarding the status of your appeal to us.

3. If you chose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery
procedures and may proceed with Court action against you.

*********

H C Andersen

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2024, 06:29:24 pm »
The Block management company is Chaneys Chartered Surveyors with the company number 2473115.

Really?

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02473115/filing-history

Management of real estate on a fee or contract basis


asmith93

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2024, 12:40:41 am »
That's the company name (Chaneys) they have all over the foyer and is the company they communicate with in their emails. (photo attached) https://www.chaneys-cs.com/

I was not aware of an alternative company they use in Companies House. Additionally, I received an email from  after lodging a complaint regarding PPM as below:

Thankyou for keeping me in the loop, however, you will be required to lodge a complaint directly with Parking & Property Management -info@pandpmanagement.co.uk and they will investigate your complaint within their organisation.

I seem to be going around in circles in the process with the only option, in my opinion please correct me if I'm wrong, seemingly being to lodge an appeal to the Independent Appeals Service. Any experience with this body? Any advice on how to proceed and any legislative text that could help me would be greatly appreciated.

H C Andersen

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2024, 10:28:51 am »
As the notice makes clear, Chaneys are simply functionaries who have been contracted by VHMC. They have no executive authority, they're merely contractors/agents for VHMC.

VHMC is the company in question. Can we pl see their full name pl - there's no need to hide them because my guess is that VH is part of the location on the PCN.

Your 'loop' is the problem, it should (as a minimum) you, VHMC and the PPC. Ultimately you would involvethe landlord.

It is a breach of their contractual obligation to you under the lease to allow your rights effectively to be removed because of the incompetence of VHMC and the PPC.

asmith93

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Re: PCN for not parking in my bay - was occupied the evening before
« Reply #23 on: February 29, 2024, 10:08:11 am »
Hello,

Ah yes you are right the website is here:

http://winterthurway.co.uk/

Their section on parking which does not give me any more information tbh. http://winterthurway.co.uk/estate/parking/.

They have budgets and accounts (last one available seems to be 2021) but does show expenditure on surface parking, however does not show specifics on what that was spent on. I have also had a glance at their board meetings and there is nothing specific on parking arrangements.

It seems that for any day to day matters they just refer to their managing agents which are Chaneys.

Under the contact section they have an email to contact the VHMC Board of Directors.


********
On-site support
To contact the VHMC Board of Directors regarding any of the below you can email by clicking the link below.  Please mark the email for the attention of the VHMC Directors

help@winterthurway.co.uk

Queries relating to the governance, structure or management of VHMC
Requests for additional information regarding the on-going performance of VHMC
Complaints or praise regarding the performance of either the board or estates team
*********

I assume my next point of call is to contact the email above.

I have looked the the rules and regulations on the VHMC website and states this under parking:
*****
4. Parking
Parking is in allocated spaces in different areas. The first is the multi-story car park (“MSCP”)
off Winterthur Way. This parking is shared with Winterthur Life UK Ltd and access is through
a fob operated shutter (see below). Secondly, there are under-croft parking spaces beneath
Blocks Cherry, Holly and Elm and again accessed through automated gates. Finally, there are
individual spaces marked out in the parking areas as well as individual garages. It is important
that all residents park only in the space allocated to their apartment and not in their
neighbour’s space. In addition to the allocated spaces, there are a number of visitors’ parking
spaces (seebelow).
Resident Parking
a) Vehicles shall only be parked within marked parking bays. Those not parked inside a
marked bay (i.e. within the bay markings) will be deemed improperly parked.
b) Under the Lease of your apartment, you may be allocated a numbered parking bay for
one vehicle. If you are unsure which is your allocated parking bay, please contact the
MA or Estate office.
c) It is not permitted to park any trade vehicles, lorries, boats, caravans, motorised
homes or temporary structure in the parking space or anywhere within the
development.
d) Victory Hill operates a parking permit and management scheme operated and
managed by an independent third party. Any parking disputes should only be directed
to the nominated parking management company and not the MA. Visitor Parking
a) There are 16 visitors’ spaces in the development. These are marked by the letter ‘V’.

*******
I have also found snippets in the meeting minutes from 2021 & 2022 that do mention regarding parking as snippets below, in particular wavering parking penalties during this construction period but looks like there is no outcome I can see. For a while it seems that my current spot is a temporary alternative due to the fact that there are using our under croft parking as a site which is still there. I have never experienced this as I moved in after they had started.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2024, 11:23:37 am by asmith93 »