Author Topic: PCN Chester Private Car Park  (Read 16196 times)

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Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« Reply #60 on: »
Thanks for that, Imgbb seems to have inverted the NtK hence it looked like the dates were redacted, attached again below as pics rather than PDF:

https://ibb.co/fYTCcdvf
https://ibb.co/yc1MsW58

Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« Reply #61 on: »
I received the following email from ELMS, noting they have not responded to my email sent yesterday challenging the £70.

---------
Good morning

Further to my previous email, please find attached the contract containing a site map, and a clear copy of the sign, as requested in your email below.

Please let us know if you require any further information.

Kind Regards
 
Angie Bailey
 
ELMS Legal Limited
----------

Attachments below:

https://ibb.co/dJ4dN3yN
https://ibb.co/ZpR96TJ2
https://ibb.co/7Jnzsz6w

Is the contract out of date or am I missing something?


Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« Reply #62 on: »
Clause 6.5 states that the contract will automatically extend for a further 12 months unless/until the client gives notice in writing of their desire to end said contract.

Given it was agreed 10 years ago, however, there'd be no harm in putting them to proof that no such instruction has been received at a later stage.

Also worth checking, if you haven't already, that the company with whom that agreement was made ("RESIDENTIAL MANAGEMENT GROUP LIMITED") still hold an interest in the land that allows them to hold such a contract.

Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« Reply #63 on: »
I've not asked them anything more about the contract, I also got a response from them ref the VAT issue as follows, should I now just wait for the legal pack to come through?

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Good morning,

Thank you for your email, the contents of which we have noted.

I can confirm that there is no VAT added to the £70.00 fee.

You have stated that you feel the £70.00 Debt Recovery Fee is not recoverable, however the Private Parking Sector Single Code of Practice (2024) reads as follows:

“09    Escalation of costs    Where a Parking Charge becomes overdue a sum of up to £70 may be added.”

There is no requirement to provide invoices, remittances, statements or any further evidence to support the addition of this amount and therefore this is not something which we would provide. 

With regard to your previous comments, the amount of the parking charge falls within the “between £50 to £100” bracket quoted at paragraph 111 of Parking Eye -v- Beavis [2015]. It is also in keeping with the guidelines given by the ATA: - “Part 8.2.1, The Private Parking Sector Single Code of Practice version 1.1 dated 17/02/2025 states “Parking Charges must not exceed £100.”. The amount charged is set at a rate that covers the operational costs of the parking management scheme and acts as a deterrent, as was found to be appropriate in Parking Eye -v- Beavis [2015].

The hold on the above case is due to expire on 17 November 2025.

If payment of £170.00 was made before this date, then the case would not proceed any further. We would also be able to accept this either in full or via instalments over a maximum of 10 months. If you would like to set up a payment plan please contact us to advise how much you would be looking to make payment for and which date of the month would be best for the payments to be due, then we would be able to set this up on our system which would put a hold on any legal proceedings.

If you are wanting to make a payment on the outstanding balance, please contact us on 01529 406096 or alternatively, you can make payment online through our website at https://elmslegal.co.uk/payments/

Please ensure you use your unique reference number, XXXXXXXX, so that we can allocate your payment to your account, otherwise the payment may not be registered and will be returned to you resulting in the balance still being outstanding.

Alternatively, if you were looking to dispute the matter further then you would be able to do so once the case has been issued. Once this has been issued the court would send you a claim pack which would allow you to file a full defence and have your case allocated to a hearing.

Kind Regards

Emily Scriminger-Faulkner

Deputy Team Leader

ELMS Legal Limited
-------

Thanks once again for all your help & guidance.

Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« Reply #64 on: »
The contract and signage bundle they’ve now disclosed actually weakens their position further rather than improving it. You can use this material decisively when replying or later in a defence. Here’s the analysis and how you should now respond to Elms.

1. Contract Date and Expiry
The “Terms and Conditions of Contract” are dated 7 July 2015 for a 12-month term commencing 31 August 2015 and ending 30 August 2016.
There is no evidence of renewal, extension, or re-execution. That is fatal to any current standing unless they can prove a continuous contractual chain to 2025. The “Extended Term” clause at 6.4 is conditional upon notice of extension being served; they have produced no such notice.

Accordingly, what they have supplied proves that VCS had authority in 2015–2016 only. It does not evidence any subsisting right to operate or litigate at Signal Court in 2025.

2. Landowner Authority Deficiency
The signatory, John Rooney, signed “for and on behalf of Residential Management Group Ltd” as Property Manager, not as the freeholder or head leaseholder. There is no evidence of the freeholder’s written authority empowering RMG Ltd to sub-delegate enforcement rights.

The agreement grants only a “non-exclusive licence to occupy” (clause 2) — not a proprietary interest nor an express right to litigate in its own name. That distinction is crucial under CPR 16.4 and CPR Part 31.

Thus, even if still extant (it is not), this contract does not confer locus standi to issue proceedings in VCS’s own name.

3. Signage Defects
The displayed sign is prohibitive rather than contractual. Its dominant wording — “Valid Permit Holders Only” — forbids parking without a permit. It offers no alternative licence or consideration, so no contractual offer exists for a non-permit holder to accept. The only logical inference is that unauthorised parking constitutes trespass, actionable (if at all) only by the landowner, not by VCS.

Additionally, the sign’s lower text states “Charges may include VAT,” contradicting their earlier statement that the £70 “does not contain VAT”. That inconsistency corroborates that the £70 is not a genuine cost but an arbitrary mark-up.

Respond with the following:

Quote
Subject: Signal Court (16/04/2025) – Non-existent contractual authority and defective signage

Dear Ms Scriminger-Faulkner,

Thank you for providing the redacted contract and site plan.

Having reviewed them, I note:

1. The agreement is dated 7 July 2015 and expired on 30 August 2016. No renewal or extension notice has been produced. It therefore confers no authority whatsoever in 2025.
2. The document grants Vehicle Control Services Ltd only a non-exclusive licence to occupy, not proprietary rights or standing to litigate. 3. The signature is by a property manager, not the freeholder or superior landlord.
4. The signage you rely upon is purely prohibitive (“Valid Permit Holders Only”) and cannot form a contractual offer to unauthorised drivers. Any alleged contravention would, at most, constitute trespass—an action available only to the landowner.
5. The sign states “charges may include VAT”, whereas you have now confirmed that the £70 “does not contain VAT”. That inconsistency will be relied upon as evidence that no third-party cost was incurred and that the £70 uplift is an unrecoverable fabrication.

In view of the above, please confirm within seven days whether you still intend to pursue this matter despite lacking (a) subsisting landowner authority, (b) any enforceable contract, and (c) a recoverable £70 uplift. If you proceed regardless, I will invite the Court to strike out the claim and will seek costs for unreasonable conduct.

Yours faithfully,

[Name]
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« Reply #65 on: »
Quote
The “Extended Term” clause at 6.4 is conditional upon notice of extension being served
Is it? I can see mention of written notice being required for termination, but renewal seems to be automatic. I'd agree raising the point about the length of time would seem sensible nonetheless.

Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« Reply #66 on: »
Ah, yes. I’ve re-read the form of VCS/RMG agreement (the 2015 “Fully Comprehensive Scheme”). Clause 6.4 in that template is the usual rolling renewal: the initial 12-month term continues automatically (“will continue to rollover”) unless terminated on notice. The written notice requirement sits with termination, not renewal.

So the clean way to run this is:

Correct the point (no need to concede anything):

I note the agreement provides for automatic continuation beyond 2016 absent termination. You are therefore put to strict proof that it remained continuously in force up to 16/04/2025 and that no termination or variation occurred.

Still attack authority/continuity (the 10-year gap matters): ask for—
• Evidence of continuous subsistence: any renewal letters, later schedules, addenda, or confirmations covering the period 2016–2025.
• Evidence the counterparty is still the lawful occupier/agent empowered to grant enforcement rights (RMG’s mandate from the freeholder or superior landlord).
• Evidence of ongoing performance & consideration (e.g. annual sign rental invoices, maintenance/permits logs).
• The current site plan and signage audit for 2025 (the plan you’ve been sent is dated and marked “not to scale”).
• Proof that the agreement expressly permits VCS to litigate in its own name (non-exclusive licence to occupy isn’t the same as standing to sue).

Keep the other two pressure points live:
• Prohibitive sign (“Valid Permit Holders Only”) → no offer to non-permit users, so at best trespass (landowner only).
• £70 no VAT → their written admission + the sign’s “charges may include VAT” line helps show the £70 is an internal uplift, not a third-party, VATable service. Couple that with PPSCoP v1.1 (17/02/2025) banning add-ons and PoFA 4(5) cap.

If useful, here’s an insert you can drop into the next letter (replacing my earlier line about “notice of extension”):

“Having reviewed the contract, I note it provides for automatic continuation beyond 30/08/2016 absent termination. You are therefore put to strict proof that the agreement subsisted continuously to 16/04/2025 and that the contracting entity (RMG) held and still holds authority from the landowner to confer enforcement and litigation rights on VCS. Please provide copies of any renewals, addenda, or confirmations post-2016, evidence of ongoing consideration (annual signage/maintenance invoices), and the current site plan and signage audit. In the absence of such proof, your client lacks standing.”

That preserves accuracy while keeping the evidential burden on them.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« Reply #67 on: »
Just trying to put together both posts, would the following suffice as a response, I've combined them to the best of my ability/knowledge:

Quote

Having reviewed the contract, I note it provides for automatic continuation beyond 30/08/2016 absent termination.

1. You are therefore put to strict proof that the agreement subsisted continuously to 16/04/2025 and that the contracting entity (RMG) held and still holds authority from the landowner to confer enforcement and litigation rights on VCS. Please provide copies of any renewals, addenda, or confirmations post-2016, evidence of ongoing consideration (annual signage/maintenance invoices), and the current site plan and signage audit. In the absence of such proof, your client lacks standing.
2. The document grants Vehicle Control Services Ltd only a non-exclusive licence to occupy, not proprietary rights or standing to litigate.
3. The signature is by a property manager, not the freeholder or superior landlord.
4. The signage you rely upon is purely prohibitive (“Valid Permit Holders Only”) and cannot form a contractual offer to unauthorised drivers. Any alleged contravention would, at most, constitute trespass—an action available only to the landowner.
5. The sign states “charges may include VAT”, whereas you have now confirmed that the £70 “does not contain VAT”. That inconsistency will be relied upon as evidence that no third-party cost was incurred and that the £70 uplift is an unrecoverable fabrication.

In view of the above, please confirm within seven days whether you still intend to pursue this matter despite lacking (a) subsisting landowner authority, (b) any enforceable contract, and (c) a recoverable £70 uplift. If you proceed regardless, I will invite the Court to strike out the claim and will seek costs for unreasonable conduct.


Thanks
« Last Edit: October 18, 2025, 12:10:45 am by 3Sh3roo »

Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« Reply #68 on: »
Please see response from ELMS below, should I just now wait?

Quote
Good afternoon,

Thank you for your email, the contents of which we note.

I have confirmed with our client, Vehicle Control Services Limited, that the contract remains in place and has not been terminated by either party.

Please refer to clause 3.5 of the attached contract, which reads in part “which may extend to debt recovery and/or court action” and 5.2 which reads “including suing for their recovery”.

I can confirm that J. Rooney was authorised to sign this contract on behalf of Residential Management Group Ltd and so would be able to agree to the terms and conditions therein.

Your comments regarding the signage being purely prohibitive have been noted, and our client would disagree that a contact was not formed.

Your comments regarding VAT have also been noted, however our client maintains that this is not relevant to the matter at hand.

The matter remains on hold until 20 November 2025, after which it may be issued upon.

Kind Regards
 
Emily Scriminger-Faulkner

Deputy Team Leader
 
ELMS Legal Limited



Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« Reply #69 on: »
So why have you not bothered to show us the copy of the contract referred to in that response????

Respond to that rubbish from  with:

Quote
Subject: Signal Court (16/04/2025) — Strict proof of standing, subsistence, signage and £70 uplift

Dear Ms Scriminger-Faulkner,

Thank you for your email.

“Contract remains in place” — assertion is not evidence
A bare confirmation is insufficient for PAPDC purposes. Please provide strict proof that the 07/07/2015 agreement subsisted continuously to 16/04/2025, namely:
• Copies of any renewals, extensions, side letters or variations post-2016;
• Annual invoices/receipts for the contract consideration (e.g. sign rental/maintenance) and any management charges;
• A current authority letter from the landowner/freeholder (or superior landlord) confirming that Residential Management Group Ltd had and still has authority to appoint VCS to enforce and to litigate in its own name at Signal Court in 2025.

Clauses 3.5 and 5.2
You rely on 3.5 (“may extend to debt recovery and/or court action”) and 5.2 (“including suing for their recovery”). Those clauses are only operative if (a) the agreement was in force in 2025; and (b) the counterparty was legally empowered by the landowner to delegate litigation rights. Produce the upstream mandate from the landowner evidencing RMG’s power to confer locus standi. Without it, your client’s alleged standing is put to strict proof.

Site plan and signage — material-date proof required
The plan you supplied is historic and marked “not to scale”. Please provide a contemporaneous (April 2025) signage audit: the number, locations, sizes and wording of all signs as at the material date, and photographs showing visibility on the approach, at the bay and at night. The principal sign you rely on is prohibitive (“Valid Permit Holders Only”), offers no licence to non-permit users and therefore cannot form a contract with them; at most it alleges trespass, which only the landowner could pursue. This point is maintained.

£70 “debt recovery” uplift — your VAT admission remains material
You now say VAT is “not relevant”. It is. Your express confirmation that the £70 “does not contain VAT”, taken with the sign’s statement that “charges may include VAT”, is probative that no VATable third-party service was supplied or paid for and that the £70 is an internal surcharge. I will rely on that admission. For the avoidance of doubt:
• PoFA Sch.4 para 4(5) caps keeper liability at the NtK sum;
• The PPSCoP (17/02/2025) prohibits adding debt-recovery uplifts;
• CRA 2015 fairness/transparency applies to ancillary charges; and
• County court authority has repeatedly disallowed the £60/£70 bolt-on.

Unless you produce verifiable proof of a real third-party cost actually incurred and paid (invoice + proof of payment), any claim for £170 will be opposed as double recovery and unreasonable.

PAPDC compliance and timetable
Please provide the documents requested at 1)–3) within 7 days. In their absence I will treat your position as non-compliant with the Protocol and will place this correspondence before the court on conduct, inviting appropriate case-management relief and costs. For clarity, no payment will be made on an inflated figure.

This is without prejudice to all other points, including primacy of title/tenancy rights and the absence of a contractual offer on your signage.

Finally, it appears from your correspondence that this matter is being handled by administrative staff rather than a legally qualified or authorised person. Conduct of litigation is a reserved legal activity under section 12 of the Legal Services Act 2007.

Please therefore confirm, within seven days:
1. The full name and SRA number of the supervising solicitor responsible for this case;
2. That all communications, including the preparation and service of any Letter of Claim or statement of case, are undertaken under that solicitor’s supervision; and
3. That any statement of truth or court document will be signed by an authorised person.

If this information is not provided, or if it transpires that unregulated personnel are exercising reserved legal functions without supervision, I will refer the matter to the Solicitors Regulation Authority.

Yours faithfully,

[Name]
[Address / Email]
« Last Edit: October 20, 2025, 06:26:01 pm by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« Reply #70 on: »
Thanks for this, I will send it today. The copy of the contract is in post #61, I think you've seen it already...  :)

Also, I shared the AST back in May which is the only paperwork I've signed, not that I expect anyone to remember.

Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« Reply #71 on: »
Feedback as follows:

Quote
Good afternoon,

Thank you for your email.

I have passed this request to our client and will revert to you in due course.

Kind Regards
 
Emily Scriminger-Faulkner

Deputy Team Leader
 
ELMS Legal Limited


She hasn't addressed the last section about legally qualified people (or anything for that matter).

Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« Reply #72 on: »
I am perhaps extending them more benefit of the doubt than they deserve here, but to reduce the amount of back and forth, I'd be tempted to wait until they come back to you, having passed the request to their client, and see which (if any) of your queries they address. You can chase if nothing is received in a timely manner, of course.
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Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« Reply #73 on: »
Please see response from ELMS as follows, do I just wait till 20th Nov?

Quote
Thank you for your patience whilst we received our clients response.


Our client maintains that the Contract is valid and that the signage on site meets BPA approval. Our client further advises that the information requested would be provided if required by the Court.
 
The £70 recovery fee applicable to this matter does not contain VAT. The statement “charges may include VAT” is correct, they may. The operative word being “may”.

Liability Cap under PoFA - We note your reference to Schedule 4, Paragraph 4(5) of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA), which states that the registered keeper’s liability is limited to the amount specified in the Notice to Keeper (NtK). However, this statutory cap relates specifically to keeper liability, not to charges pursued against a driver or contractually liable party outside PoFA. The £70 is pursued as a contractual charge and/or a consequential loss resulting from non-payment, not as a PoFA recovery.

Parking Code of Practice (PPSCoP – February 2025)  - You cite the Private Parking Code of Practice (17 February 2025) as prohibiting such uplifts. Please note that this Code sets the current cap at £70.00 for Debt Recovery Fees.

Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA) - With respect to the CRA 2015, we maintain that the £70 charge is both transparent and proportionate in the context of the contractual arrangement. The charge is outlined in the terms and conditions communicated at the point of contract (i.e. signage), and it reflects the legitimate costs of debt recovery action. Case law has recognised the principle that such costs may be recoverable where properly incorporated into the contract.

County Court Authority - While we acknowledge that some County Court decisions have disallowed similar charges, others have upheld them depending on case-specific facts. As you will appreciate, County Court judgments are not binding precedents. We are satisfied that our position is supported by existing contractual documentation and legal principles, and we are prepared to present our case should this matter proceed further.

I can confirm that, with regard to your comments regarding conduct of litigation,  we are assisting our client with litigation, not conducting. Edmund Shoreman-Lawson (SRA number – 537827 ) is the Principle of ELMS Legal Ltd, being a Solicitor (SRA number – 537827 ) with a current practising certificate is an authorised person for this purpose.

This matter remains on hold until 20/11/2025.

Kind Regards
 
Angie Bailey
 
ELMS Legal Limited


Re: PCN Chester Private Car Park
« Reply #74 on: »
Respond with the following:

Quote
Subject: Signal Court (16/04/2025) — £70 uplift, standing, driver/keeper basis, and authorisation

Dear Ms Bailey,

Thank you for your email.

1. £70 “debt recovery” — your VAT admission remains probative
You have twice confirmed the £70 “does not contain VAT”, while the sign says “charges may include VAT”. I will rely on that admission. Absent a VAT-bearing invoice and proof of payment to an external supplier, the £70 is plainly an internal surcharge/double recovery, not a genuine third-party cost. Please either (a) produce the third-party invoice(s) and remittance(s), or (b) confirm you will not pursue the £70.

2. “The Code allows £70” — not determinative and still subject to law
Whatever an industry code may say, it cannot:
• expand PoFA caps;
• disapply the CRA 2015 fairness/transparency tests (s.62/s.64 and Sch.2); or
• override the small-claims fixed-costs regime.

Even if a code says “may be added”, that does not make it recoverable at law, nor does it obviate the need to prove a real cost and fair incorporation with adequate prominence (which your signage does not achieve).

3. Driver v Keeper — choose your theory and provide the evidence
Your PoFA point concedes the keeper cap applies to keeper liability. If you intend to pursue a driver/contract theory to escape PoFA 4(5), then:
• identify the person you allege was driving; and
• serve the evidence by which you will seek to prove that allegation.

If you do not identify/prove a driver, confirm you rely on PoFA keeper liability and will therefore limit any claim to the NtK sum only.

4. “Consequential loss” — not a magic label
Labelling the £70 a “contractual charge and/or consequential loss” does not succeed. Consequential loss requires actual loss, causation and mitigation — all provable by documents. You decline to provide any. A pre-set uplift, untethered to a real cost, is neither loss nor a recoverable cost on the small-claims track.

5. Standing and authority — assertions are not evidence
You say the contract “remains in place”, the signage “meets BPA approval”, and Mr Rooney was “authorised”. Please provide proof, not statements:
(a) documentary evidence of continuous subsistence 2016–2025 (renewals/addenda/consideration paid);
(b) the upstream mandate by which RMG was empowered by the freeholder/superior landlord to delegate enforcement and litigation rights to VCS; and
(c) a material-date (April 2025) signage audit (locations, sizes, wording, night-time visibility).

Your plan is historic/not to scale and the principal sign is prohibitive (“Valid Permit Holders Only”), offering no contract to non-permit users. At best that is trespass, actionable only by the landowner.

6. Conduct of litigation / supervision
Noted that you “assist” rather than conduct. Please confirm that any statement of case/statement of truth will be signed by Mr Edmund Shoreman-Lawson (SRA 537827) or another authorised person, and identify any non-solicitor representative you intend to brief together with their rights of audience.

7. Protocol timetable
Please provide the documents requested at 1), 3) and 5) within 7 days. In their absence I will treat your position as non-compliant with the PAPDC and place this correspondence before the Court on conduct, inviting appropriate case-management relief and costs. For the avoidance of doubt, no payment will be made on an inflated figure.

Yours faithfully,

[Name]
[Address / Email]
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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