Author Topic: Parked in a permit area without displaying a permit  (Read 331 times)

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b789

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Re: Parked in a permit area without displaying a permit
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2024, 01:34:22 pm »
Yes... but the NtK has to mention the "period of parking", irrespective of whether there are other evidential photos.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

DWMB2

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Re: Parked in a permit area without displaying a permit
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2024, 01:38:29 pm »
I agree - my point is that the lack of additional photos means they've provided no evidence that the vehicle was even there for long enough to attract a parking charge, which is yet another ground of appeal that can be added. Worth throwing in every issue.

Natedog

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Re: Parked in a permit area without displaying a permit
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2024, 02:03:06 pm »
Hi, yes the driver parked the vehicle in this car park here….. https://maps.app.goo.gl/VTsJaxgzCS5pHW4w7?g_st=ic

Also, the warden took numerous pictures of the vehicle. (Around 4/5 I think)
When looking online at the pictures taken, the time stamp on the pictures gives around 2 minutes from the first picture taken to the last one.

b789

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Re: Parked in a permit area without displaying a permit
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2024, 02:17:32 pm »
Can you show us the evidential photos they have. It will be interesting to see the lighting conditions.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Natedog

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Re: Parked in a permit area without displaying a permit
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2024, 02:20:01 pm »
Also, when I look at the PCN online. The reason for issue states….. Parked in a permit area without displaying a permit. I’m not sure if that makes a difference.
Anyway, I will make the appeal to POPLA with the template you suggested. Thanks again for your continued support.

b789

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Re: Parked in a permit area without displaying a permit
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2024, 02:23:20 pm »
Don't submit the POPLA appeal until you've shown us the requested photos. They can be added to the appeal to show the terrible signs and compare them to the signs in the Beavis case.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Natedog

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b789

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Re: Parked in a permit area without displaying a permit
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2024, 05:17:40 pm »
So, they have evidence that the vehicle was parked for 1 minute. Those photos were most likely taken by a "bounty hunter" who is not employed by the operator and most likely a security person at the estate who is out to earn their "bonus" for their one minute of operation.

The sign photo shown in their evidence is not referenced to the location where the van was parked. Also, have a look at the difference between a UKPC sign and the on in the Beavis case:



Any chance a clearer image of the sign can be obtained?
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Natedog

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Re: Parked in a permit area without displaying a permit
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2024, 05:29:36 pm »
Yes, I am going to the location tonight to gather some more evidence. I will post a clear picture of the signage tomorrow.

Natedog

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Re: Parked in a permit area without displaying a permit
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2024, 09:06:56 am »
So here is an image of the signage. Also, I had to climb over a fence to get this close to take the picture. I recorded a video showing the fence for POPLA. Standing behind the said fence, would make it impossible to read the print on the signage.

https://ibb.co/1GSMg28

b789

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Re: Parked in a permit area without displaying a permit
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2024, 11:04:57 am »
Here is a better image to compare with the Beavis sign to show how the notice of the charge is not adequately brought to the attention of the motorist:

Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Natedog

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Re: Parked in a permit area without displaying a permit
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2024, 11:20:26 am »
Thanks for that, it’s good to know.

Natedog

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Re: Parked in a permit area without displaying a permit
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2024, 02:09:04 pm »
So I appealed to POPLA following the template you suggested and UKPC have uploaded their evidence to the appeal.
They have uploaded a contract with the landowner, also pictures of the signage along with a letter which I will detail below…..

On the 08/08/2024, our parking operative issued a parking charge virtually to vehicle registration HG18HZT at Uplands Business Park. The parking charge was issued because the vehicle was parked on site without displaying a valid permit.
Following the parking event on 08/08/2024, UKPC had reasonable cause to obtain the details of the registered keeper from the DVLA for the purposes of issuing a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) by post- a copy of this PCN is included in this pack.
The PCN was issued on 12/08/2024
The parking charge rate was £100.00, reduced to £60.00 if payment was received within fourteen days.
An appeal was received from the vehicle driver Mr NATHAN MARREN on the 22/08/2024, which the appeals department investigated and decided to reject.
Whilst UKPC note the comments, we cannot accept them as evidence when reviewing a parking charge notice. It is the motorist's responsibility to ensure that when they leave their vehicle, they have a permit visible for inspection.
The period of parking is the time in which the vehicle was parked, which was at 01:54. I refer to section 13.4 British Parking Association Code of Practice "The driver must have the chance to consider the Terms and Conditions before entering into the 'parking contract' with you. If, having had that opportunity, the driver decides not to park but chooses to leave the car park, you must provide them with a reasonable consideration period to leave before the driver can be bound by your parking contract. The amount of time in these instances will vary dependant on site size and type but it must be a minimum of 5 minutes". As it is clear a parking event has occurred, I must refer to Section 13.2 of The BPA Code of Practice,
"13.2 The
reference to a consideration period in 13.1 shall not apply where a parking event takes place" It is also important to reference Section 13.6 of the BPA Code of Practice, "Neither a consideration period or a grace period are periods of free parking and there is no requirement for you to offer an additional allowance on top of a consideration or grace period". As the appellant failed to comply with the terms, they were not authorised to park on site and as such no grace period would be required in this case.
In this instance the motorist is not present in the vehicle so we would contest that means an event has taken place. It is our position that by parking without a permit this constitutes them parking without authorisation, which 13.4 further reinforces, stipulating that the 5 minute consideration is not required.

Keeper Liability - Following the parking event, UKPC had reasonable cause to obtain
Page
PARKING CONTROL LTD
the details of the registered keeper so that a parking charge notice could be issued by post. A copy of this notice is included in this case summary, dated 12/08/2024 .
Issued 7 days after the date of the parking event (where a Notice to Driver was not served), the parking charge notice complies fully with paragraph 9 of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 in permitting the registered keeper to be held liable to pay this unpaid parking charge.
UKPC must maintain a consistent approach when issuing and upholding a charge. In this instance, this vehicle had been parked on site in direct breach of the terms and conditions of parking on site as stated on signage. The vehicle was parked in close proximity to UKPC signage, please see all photographic evidence to support this.
UK Parking Control signage complies fully with section 18 of the British Parking Association Code of Practice and we reject the suggestion that it is vague or misleading. Entrance signage advises motorists that terms of parking apply, and that notices within the car park should be checked to identify the full terms and conditions. These notices are placed throughout the car park. It is ultimately the responsibility of the motorist to ensure they identify the terms of parking, and then decide whether to park their vehicle, or leave the site if they are unable to meet those terms.
There is colour contrast between the text and its background found on our signage, each of which is a single solid colour. The best way UKPC have found to achieve this is to have black text on a white background. UKPC's signs are readable and understandable at all times, including during the hours of darkness or at dusk when parking enforcement activities take place.
This can be achieved in a variety of ways such as by direct lighting or by using the lighting for the parking area. If the sign itself is not directly or indirectly lit, UKPC signage has been manufactured using a retro-reflective material similar to that used on public roads and described in the Traffic Signs Manual. Dark-coloured areas do not need to be reflective.
The British Parking Association (BPA) does not stipulate that signs must be lit at night. UKPC can confirm that there is sufficient ambient lighting from lampposts or other light sources found within the site. As a result, it is our position that under these conditions, the signage would have been sufficiently visible. When designing our signage, UKPC utilize as much contrast between the various sections to ensure that they are as legible as possible in all conditions.
The parking charges issued by UK Parking Control Limited are based on a contractual agreement between UKPC and the driver, as detailed on the signage displayed in the car park. The signage states the terms and conditions of parking and explains that a parking charge will be payable if the terms are not met by the driver.
We ensure that signage is ample, clear and visible, wholly in line with the British Parking Association Code of Practice. It is settled law that a driver is deemed to have accepted the terms and conditions of parking by the act of parking and leaving a vehicle.
Ultimately, it is fundamentally the responsibility of the motorist to identify the terms of parking when leaving their vehicle on private land. If they feel they are unable to adhere to the terms, they may leave the site before agreeing to those terms.
There are sufficient signs advising drivers that parking without a permit may result in a parking charge being issued. Mr NATHAN MARREN vehicle was parked without displaying a valid permit; consequently, the parking charge was issued correctly.
A letter was sent to Mr NATHAN MARREN informing him of our decision on the 16/10/2024.

b789

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Re: Parked in a permit area without displaying a permit
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2024, 02:24:05 pm »
Thanks for that, it’s good to know.
I provided a comparison of the Beavis sign with the UKPC one. Did yours that image in your POPLA appeal? "Good to know" doesn't help you if you didn't use it.

You now need to go through all your points of appeal and check with ones, if any, UKPC have not rebutted. Make a note of all those points. Also, go through their response pack and note any things that they are obviously lying about such as "UK Parking Control signage complies fully with section 18 of the British Parking Association Code of Practice and we reject the suggestion that it is vague or misleading." which is why I gave you the comparison sign which included Lord Dennis famous quote.

When you took photos of the signs, did you take any without using flash to show how unreadable they at night?
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

DWMB2

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Re: Parked in a permit area without displaying a permit
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2024, 02:34:47 pm »
It might be wise to show us redacted copies of the letter, and show us the contract they have provided.

The letter you have copied and pasted is hard to read in the format provided as it appears as a wall of text.