Author Topic: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M  (Read 1111 times)

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cp8759

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@zzzatang well sorry I don't wish to labour the point, but you've already failed to do the minimum. The minimum would have been a 1 line representation made in time saying "the contravention did not occur", but we are where we are.

Yes there's no harm in attaching all three screenshots and I'd put print-outs in the letter going by post as well.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Hippocrates

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Send the e mail presto. In my view, the premature issue of the charge certificate by the council has necessitated your only option which is to use their e mail address as one route.  I would also require them to cancel the C.C.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2024, 11:25:58 am by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

zzzatang

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I have sent the email today to parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk and I also managed to send a special delivery (due to be delivered on Tue 1pm) post earlier today by finding a post office branch open on a Sunday.

Thanks for your help

Hippocrates

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In my view, the former should suffice.  Please show exactly the play you wrote.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

zzzatang

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I sent the following email yesterday (90% of text was as proposed by cp8759 on this thread):

Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2024 5:00 PM
To: Parking and Traffic Enforcement <parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk>
Subject: Representations against PCN AF98203157 not allowed online before 28 days period

Dear London Borough of Redbridge,

I have attempted to make representations against PCN AF98203157 which was deemed served on 19 February 2024, and by my calculation the last day of the 28 day period is 17 March 2024 i.e. today. However the council website at https://my.redbridge.gov.uk/ParkingPCN/Review wrongly tells me that the only option is to pay the outstanding balance of 195 and that the period when I could contest this PCN has expired. (Timestamped Screenshots attached)

I therefore challenge the PCN for two reasons: firstly the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case, as the penalty cannot be increased to 195 before 18 March 2024. Secondly where the penalty charge notice provides for representations to be submitted on the council website, it is a procedural impropriety to prevent a motorist from submitting representations online before the end of the statutory 28 day period.

Yours faithfully,
Full name
Full address

( Three screehshots were attached to the email: two with Time.is timestamp of Sun 17-Mar-2024 that I shared earlier and one with timestamp of Sat 16-Mar-2024 )



I have received  the following response from the council this morning asking for further info:

From: Parking and Traffic Enforcement <parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2024 at 08:47
Subject: RE: Representations against PCN AF98203157 not allowed online before 28 days period
To: me

Good Morning,

Thank you for your email.

Please could you advise if the Penalty Charge Notice was received?

Regards,
Shals

Business Administrator
Parking Management
London Borough of Redbridge

I am not sure why they are asking for me to confirm whether the PCN was received. Is there something more than what meets the eye ?

@Hippocrates , apologies I missed your message about requesting the CC be cancelled in the original email. Should I add this request in the response to there email today?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2024, 03:00:25 pm by zzzatang »

Hippocrates

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Be up front with them and ask them to cancel the  C.C. And keep a record of everything of course.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

zzzatang

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@Hippocrates / @cp8759 , please advise whether I should respond to this email I received in response to the complaint I filed on council's website (this is separate from the email I sent to parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk on cp8759's advice):

From: Highways Parking & Transportation <icw.highways@redbridge.gov.uk>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2024 at 15:19
Subject: Enquiry (ref: 21477746)
To: me


Date: 18 March 2024
 
Dear P** ***
 
Your case reference:  21477746
 
In response to your enquiry received on 17 March 2024 regarding PCN AF98203157.
 
I have liaised with the Parking team who have looked into your enquiry.
 
Our Parking records show that a Penalty Charge Notice was issued on the 15th February 2024 for entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited on the 10th February 2024 at Horns Road.

As no payment was received for the notice, after the 28 days for payment had expired and no further correspondence were received, the Parking then issued a Charge Certificate on the 15th March 2024, informing you that the debt remained outstanding, increasing the amount to 195.00 as a 50% surcharge had been added.

The notice is now at the stage where a Charge Certificate has been issued. Once a Charge Certificate has been issued and/or subsequent notices, these are payment only notices. We are able to accept a late representation for the issue of the Notice, there is no guarantee that if the notice is rejected that the discounted amount will be awarded (as a Charge Certificate has been issued). However the 50% surcharge will be removed.

You can submit your appeal via email to parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk
You will need to supply the PCN number and the VRM so that we can submit your representation on your behalf.
 
I trust the above is of assistance.
 
Yours sincerely

Gurp**** K****
Resolution Officer
London Borough of Redbridge

In the above email they have confirmed that the CC was issued on 15-Mar-2028. I have not received the CC in the post yet.
Does this new information change anything?

Should I just respond to the email received from  parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk earlier today with the following:

Dear London Borough of Redbridge,

I received the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) with the reference number AF98203157.

I reviewed the screenshots I attached in my email yesterday, dated 16-Mar-2024 and 17-Mar-2024. I noticed that the status of this PCN is now "Charge Certificate Posted." Additionally, the resolution officer informed me today that the council issued a Charge Certificate on 15-March-2024 in response to my complaint about this PCN.

Given this new information, I kindly request that you cancel the Charge Certificate issued for this PCN. In my case, it cannot be issued before 18-Mar-2024.

Yours sincerely,

Full Name
Full Address


Hippocrates

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Dear Redbirdge

FAO:  Shals and Gurp**** K****

Thank you for your response.

According to the Statutory Framework, to which you have not adhered, I attempted to make formal representations last night which is the last day as legally prescribed on which to do so.

Please cancel the Charge Certificate and provide me with a valid response of acceptance or NOR  so  that I can take the matter to the Tribunal for independent adjudication.

I have kept a screenshot of all the evidence with regard to this abuse of process and will be represented at any hearing should you wish this matter to progress to this stage.

Yours sincerely

Name

Registered keeper

Address


***********

I am happy to represent you by the way
« Last Edit: March 18, 2024, 09:41:50 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

zzzatang

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@Hippocrates Thanks for your offer to represent. If it goes to that stage, I would really appreciate if you could represent me, please.

However, I just want to confirm whether the draft response you proposed (Today at 06:49:41 pm) should be sent verbatim, as it is a bit more stern and direct in its use of words / language.  ???    :-\

Hippocrates

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I am blunt but not vexatious. Up to you. They have departed from the law.  End of. You can choose your own words. The message should be the same.

(I won a case against them today in which they served a C.C.)  In my view, they are quixotic and incompetent. You can use your own tone!  Come on, the C.C. has caused you stress?

I have edited it accordingly.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2024, 09:33:33 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Hippocrates

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@Hippocrates Thanks for your offer to represent. If it goes to that stage, I would really appreciate if you could represent me, please.

However, I just want to confirm whether the draft response you proposed (Today at 06:49:41 pm) should be sent verbatim, as it is a bit more stern and direct in its use of words / language.  ???    :-\
Please see my edited version!
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

cp8759

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I have received  the following response from the council this morning asking for further info:

From: Parking and Traffic Enforcement <parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2024 at 08:47
Subject: RE: Representations against PCN AF98203157 not allowed online before 28 days period
To: me

Good Morning,

Thank you for your email.

Please could you advise if the Penalty Charge Notice was received?

Regards,
Shals

Business Administrator
Parking Management
London Borough of Redbridge

I am not sure why they are asking for me to confirm whether the PCN was received. Is there something more than what meets the eye ?
I'd just go back to them confirming the PCN was served on 19 February 2024.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

zzzatang

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I'd just go back to them confirming the PCN was served on 19 February 2024.

Please see my edited version!

Thank you @Hippocrates and @cp8759

I have sent the following email this morning: [It incorporates your feedback]

Dear London Borough of Redbridge,

FAO:  Shals and Gur**** K.

Thank you for your responses.

The PCN was served on 19 February 2024.

According to the Statutory Framework, to which you have not adhered, I attempted to make formal representations on Sunday 17-Mar-2024, which is the last day as legally prescribed on which to do so.

Please cancel the Charge Certificate that was issued on 15-Mar-2024 and provide me with a valid response of acceptance or NOR so that I can take the matter to the Tribunal for independent adjudication.

Please note that I have kept a screenshot of all the evidence with regard to this abuse of process and will be represented at any hearing should you wish this matter to progress to this stage.

Yours sincerely,
Full Name
Full Address


I will update you once I get a response  from the council. Again, thanks for all your help, its much appreciated

zzzatang

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I am blunt but not vexatious. Up to you. They have departed from the law.  End of. You can choose your own words. The message should be the same.

(I won a case against them today in which they served a C.C.)  In my view, they are quixotic and incompetent. You can use your own tone!  Come on, the C.C. has caused you stress?

I have edited it accordingly.

Yes, you are 100% right, the issuance of CC has understandably induced stress and anxiety. The council's deviation from the law has further aggravated the situation. Your original draft effectively captured my emotions.

However, I felt the need to adopt a more measured tone for two reasons.
1. The individuals handling my complaint, although employed by the council, were not directly responsible for signing off on the flawed system.
2. Writing in a slightly less harsh tone may increase the likelihood of my appeal being accepted, even if the improvement is marginal.

Thanks for the edits, I have used the edited version, almost as is.

Hippocrates

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Nom worries.  Please show the play you wrote.  ;)
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ