3. Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
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zzzatang

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Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2024, 10:11:31 am »
Quote from: Hippocrates on March 19, 2024, 08:32:54 am
Nom worries.  Please show the play you wrote.  ;)

This morning, I sent the following email to the council :
From: me
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2024 7:55 AM
To: Parking and Traffic Enforcement <parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk>
Subject: Re: Representations against PCN AF98203157 not allowed online before 28 days period

Dear London Borough of Redbridge,

FAO:  Shals and Gurpreet K.

Thank you for your responses.

The PCN was served on 19 February 2024.

According to the Statutory Framework, to which you have not adhered, I attempted to make formal representations on Sunday 17-Mar-2024, which is the last day as legally prescribed on which to do so.

Please cancel the Charge Certificate that was issued on 15-Mar-2024 and provide me with a valid response of acceptance or NOR so that I can take the matter to the Tribunal for independent adjudication.

Please note that I have kept a screenshot of all the evidence with regard to this abuse of process and will be represented at any hearing should you wish this matter to progress to this stage.

Yours sincerely,
Full Name
Full Address

I received the following response from the council in last 15 minutes:
From: Parking and Traffic Enforcement <parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2024 at 09:51
Subject: RE: Representations against PCN AF98203157 not allowed online before 28 days period
To: me

Good Morning,

Thank you for your representation, unfortunately this was received after the Charge Certificate has been issued, however, the secretary of state allows all local authorities to use their discretions when accepting a late representations, we have on this occasion made the decision to use our discretion and we will accept your late representation.   By accepting your late representation does not invalidate the legislative process of a Penalty Charge Notice.

Regards,

Shals

Business Administrator
Parking Management
London Borough of Redbridge

I believe now I have to wait for their decision on my allegedly "late" representation. Should I be disputing that it was not a Late Representation ?  :-\
They have not responded to the my request to cancel the CC as well.
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Hippocrates

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Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2024, 10:26:45 am »
From: Parking and Traffic Enforcement <parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2024 at 09:51
Subject: RE: Representations against PCN AF98203157 not allowed online before 28 days period
To: me

Good Morning,

Thank you for your representation, unfortunately this was received after the Charge Certificate has been issued, however, the secretary of state allows all local authorities to use their discretions when accepting a late representations, we have on this occasion made the decision to use our discretion and we will accept your late representation.  By accepting your late representation does not invalidate the legislative process of a Penalty Charge Notice.

Regards,

Shals

Business Administrator
Parking Management
London Borough of Redbridge


Dear Shals

I acknowledge receipt of your message and duly note its contents.

I can do no better than state that my representations were clearly made within the time allowed as per the Statutory framework if you would care to note the dates involved.  With respect, it is your issue of the Charge Certificate which has necessitated this exchange.  Finally, I can assure you that my representative (who has not been officially appointed yet) is also fully conversant with the legislative process.

I rehearse: PCN AF98203157  was deemed served on 19 February 2024, and by my calculation the last day of the 28 day period is 17 March 2024.  It is Wednesbury unreasonable to state otherwise.

It would be eminently sensible for you to accept that I am correct vis a vis the timings issue and I look forward to your reply.  Please cancel the Charge Certificate forthwith.

Yours sincerely
« Last Edit: March 19, 2024, 11:26:41 am by Hippocrates »
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

H C Andersen

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Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2024, 11:29:24 am »
In a nutshell:
From the PCN
'If you fail to pay the penalty charge or make representations before the end of
a period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice[the PCN]an increased charge of £195 may be payable'

And,
'You may make representations before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the day on which this notice was served.'

So far, so good.

However,
Making representations is limited to 2 specified methods i.e. by post or online.
 
In practical terms, reps would need to be posted no later than Wed. 13th if presumed legal service was to be effected within the 28-day period.*

But, the online option was available until 23.59 Sun. 17th.

Except it wasn't.

In addition, payment was to be made by specified methods, two of which, telephone and internet, were available 24/7.


The council gambled that the penalty wouldn't be paid on 15th, 16th or 17th and issued a CC on 15th for service on 19th i.e. after the expiry of the 28-day period and ensured reps would not be made either by closing down the online 24/7 option prematurely.

Doh!

This ranks alongside other Redbridge rather singular approaches to the law and IMO would see them lose at adjudication.

*- re postal payments and reps, there is no reference to 'Service by post' in the PCN so how would the recipient know about the '2 working day' presumption?

Is this a nutshell??
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Hippocrates

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Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2024, 11:46:41 am »
In a case won yesterday, they issued a premature C.C. 4 days before they were allowed to do so.  Clearly, there is something wrong.
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

Hippocrates

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Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2024, 11:55:47 am »
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

zzzatang

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Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2024, 12:43:42 pm »
The Charge Certificate just got delivered today with 15-March-2024 as date of issue.
CC Page-1: https://app.box.com/s/xbu25fvuth8v6cutrykafw5hy86vr4ui
CC Page-2: https://app.box.com/s/n96dot6bwoepj1f2xmc6ls8bys9tbfin

@Hippocrates below is the email I sent to the council (essentially the same message as per your draft, however bit more rephrased ):

From: me
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2024 at 11:35
Subject: Re: Representations against PCN AF98203157 not allowed online before 28 days period
To: Parking and Traffic Enforcement <parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk>

Dear Shals,

I acknowledge receipt of your message and duly note its contents.

I can do no better than state that my representations were clearly made within the time allowed in the Statutory framework. Please refer to the dates involved.  The inability to submit the appeal online due to the council's issuance of the Charge Certificate before the 28-day period ended, unfortunately, necessitated this email exchange.

For clarity, I would appreciate it if you could confirm the following: Is there a dispute regarding the start and end date of the 28-day representation period for PCN AF98203157? 

I rehearse: PCN AF98203157  was deemed served on 19 February 2024, and, by my calculation, the last day of the 28-day period is 17 March 2024.  It is Wednesbury unreasonable to state otherwise. Please cancel the Charge Certificate forthwith.

While I am still finalizing the appointment of a representative, they are well-versed in the relevant legislation.

Thank you for your time and attention to this matter. I look forward to your response.

Yours sincerely,
Full name
Full address
« Last Edit: March 19, 2024, 12:45:15 pm by zzzatang »
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Hippocrates

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Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2024, 02:34:29 pm »
That's fine. Do nothing.  Do not pay. If they do not cancel just wait for the Order for Recovery.  Or better still, you can authorise me now and I will get this sorted. If you agree, I will PM you my details.  They know me.  :o
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε
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zzzatang

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Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2024, 02:58:11 pm »
Quote from: zzzatang on March 19, 2024, 12:43:42 pm
The Charge Certificate just got delivered today with 15-March-2024 as date of issue.
CC Page-1: https://app.box.com/s/xbu25fvuth8v6cutrykafw5hy86vr4ui
CC Page-2: https://app.box.com/s/n96dot6bwoepj1f2xmc6ls8bys9tbfin

@Hippocrates below is the email I sent to the council (essentially the same message as per your draft, however bit more rephrased ):

From: me
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2024 at 11:35
Subject: Re: Representations against PCN AF98203157 not allowed online before 28 days period
To: Parking and Traffic Enforcement <parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk>

Dear Shals,

I acknowledge receipt of your message and duly note its contents.

I can do no better than state that my representations were clearly made within the time allowed in the Statutory framework. Please refer to the dates involved.  The inability to submit the appeal online due to the council's issuance of the Charge Certificate before the 28-day period ended, unfortunately, necessitated this email exchange.

For clarity, I would appreciate it if you could confirm the following: Is there a dispute regarding the start and end date of the 28-day representation period for PCN AF98203157? 

I rehearse: PCN AF98203157  was deemed served on 19 February 2024, and, by my calculation, the last day of the 28-day period is 17 March 2024.  It is Wednesbury unreasonable to state otherwise. Please cancel the Charge Certificate forthwith.

While I am still finalizing the appointment of a representative, they are well-versed in the relevant legislation.

Thank you for your time and attention to this matter. I look forward to your response.

Yours sincerely,
Full name
Full address


I think we are going round in circles, below is the response from the council to my most recent email (quoted above):

From: Parking and Traffic Enforcement <parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2024 at 14:35
Subject: RE: Representations against PCN AF98203157 not allowed online before 28 days period
To: me

Good Afternoon,

Thank you for your email.

Please not the Penalty Charge Notice was posted on 15th February 2024 therefore the 28 day period has now elapsed and the representation is now late.

Regards,

Shals

Business Administrator
Parking Management

London Borough of Redbridge


@Hippocrates I think I should not respond to this latest email and just wait for few days to get council's response (acceptance or NOR) since they have confirmed that they are considering my (late) representation. Though if you think it would be more expedient then I can authorise you now as well.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2024, 03:12:37 pm by zzzatang »
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Hippocrates

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Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2024, 03:08:02 pm »
Do you want me to break the circle? If so, I will PM you now my details for authorisation.

The 15thof the month appears to be their favourite day to serve a C.C..  This happened in the other case! 15th February rather than 18th!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2024, 03:12:39 pm by Hippocrates »
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε
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zzzatang

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Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2024, 03:13:28 pm »
Quote from: Hippocrates on March 19, 2024, 03:08:02 pm
Do you want me to break the circle? If so, I will PM you now my details for authorisation.

The 15thof the month appears to be their favourite day to serve a C.C..  This happened in the other case! 15th February rather than 18th!

@Hippocrates I think I should not respond to this latest email and just wait for few days to get council's response (acceptance or NOR) since they have confirmed that they are considering my (late) representation. Though if you think it would be more expedient then I can authorise you now as well.
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Hippocrates

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Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2024, 03:25:58 pm »
The left hand does not know what the righthand is doing.  I will PM you my details with my e mail address.
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε
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Hippocrates

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Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2024, 08:34:01 pm »
The crux of the matter is, very simply, you issued a Charge Certificate prematurely. As you know, this also happened in this case : 224007474A.  Clearly, it is arguable that there appears to be a systemic problem, at least, in this regard.

In conclusion, this is not a matter in which discretion forms any part as Mr ****'s formal representations were made in time even though, of course, the website did not allow him to do so.  Therefore,  *** was obliged to send them via your e mail address as advised by me and others. And he did so in time.

Please, therefore, cancel the Charge Certificate forthwith and consider the representations as provided @ para. 1(7) of
 
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/schedule/1/enacted
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε
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cp8759

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Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2024, 12:48:04 am »
Quote from: zzzatang on March 19, 2024, 10:11:31 am
I received the following response from the council in last 15 minutes:
From: Parking and Traffic Enforcement <parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2024 at 09:51
Subject: RE: Representations against PCN AF98203157 not allowed online before 28 days period
To: me

Good Morning,

Thank you for your representation, unfortunately this was received after the Charge Certificate has been issued, however, the secretary of state allows all local authorities to use their discretions when accepting a late representations, we have on this occasion made the decision to use our discretion and we will accept your late representation.  By accepting your late representation does not invalidate the legislative process of a Penalty Charge Notice.

Regards,

Shals

Business Administrator
Parking Management
London Borough of Redbridge

I believe now I have to wait for their decision on my allegedly "late" representation.
You should do nothing until you get a notice of acceptance or a notice of rejection from the council. As it has been confirmed your representations will be considered, it would be unlawful for the council to issue an order for recovery or take any other step aside from issuing a NoA or NoR.

There's no point in arguing whether the representations are late or not, or asking for the charge certificate to be cancelled: assuming they reject the next step will be to appeal to the tribunal where everything will be cancelled anyway.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Hippocrates

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Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2024, 01:43:26 pm »
I have heard nothing back.
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

zzzatang

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Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2024, 10:25:02 pm »
Quote from: Hippocrates on March 31, 2024, 01:43:26 pm
I have heard nothing back.

According to the council’s most recent email communication, they only emailed me and did not include you (Hippocrates) in their response - even though you are representing me on this case. This suggests that they may continue this pattern in the future.

I believe it’s essential to keep everyone informed about any updates.

As of now, I haven’t received any correspondence via mail or email from the council. Considering the extended bank holiday weekend, their response may be delayed! 📬🕒
« Last Edit: March 31, 2024, 10:28:40 pm by zzzatang »
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