3. Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
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Haveringresident

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Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
« on: June 30, 2024, 01:50:45 pm »
Havering council
Failing to comply with restriction  vehicles entering pedestrian zone

I realise that I have left it too late for much advice  :( (didn’t think I’d be able to dispute it and then found your site) but I suppose I am querying whether the signs and the way they are placed can be disputed?

I entered the zone as 15.12 – it is not a road I go into but I think on that day traffic was at a standstill and I went in to turn around and go back.
I’m not sure what the requirements of the signs are but I didn’t see them and would not have been able to read them if I was turning in quickly – it’s a busy road. 

These signs are placed straight on at the near edge of the road so no chance of avoiding or turning around.
I feel that they should be placed at an angle so can be read easily but maybe that’s the point – they want the money!

Photo link to One drive - hope that's ok to post as upload folder full https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ap8lM3AI_i7_hJI0qxkbMr75qA1ryw?e=W3dDgV

Link to GSV https://maps.app.goo.gl/4fpj6vzoffSj95jN9
« Last Edit: June 30, 2024, 11:30:23 pm by cp8759 »
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John U.K.

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Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2024, 02:29:29 pm »
For meaningful advice have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

and post up here all sides of the PCN (redact only name & address, leave everything else in) and a GSV link to the location.
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Haveringresident

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Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2024, 02:37:53 pm »
I posted up the PCN with photos so not sure why they are not showing - it was a direct upload. Have reduced photo size but says upload folder full

Updated post with One Drive link and GSV link
« Last Edit: June 30, 2024, 03:35:48 pm by Haveringresident »
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John U.K.

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Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2024, 06:11:20 pm »
For convenience







« Last Edit: June 30, 2024, 06:17:32 pm by John U.K. »
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Hippocrates

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Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2024, 07:37:45 pm »
As previously advised: the ground re traffic order does not apply to this legislation therefore the PCN is unenforceable.
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

Haveringresident

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Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2024, 09:55:52 pm »
You said where previously advised. I've not seen any other advice or where is says it is unenforceable.
Could you enlarge on this info please
Thanks
« Last Edit: June 30, 2024, 10:28:45 pm by Haveringresident »
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Incandescent

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Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2024, 10:51:52 pm »
Quote from: Haveringresident on June 30, 2024, 09:55:52 pm
You said where previously advised. I've not seen any other advice or where is says it is unenforceable.
Could you enlarge on this info please
Thanks
The PCN has been issued under the London Local Authorities & Transport for London Act 2003, and the statutory grounds for an appeal do not include the first one on the list, (no contravention of an order etc).  This is only a statutory ground under the Traffic Management Act 2004.

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cp8759

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Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2024, 11:55:24 pm »
Quote from: Incandescent on June 30, 2024, 10:51:52 pm
The PCN has been issued under the London Local Authorities & Transport for London Act 2003, and the statutory grounds for an appeal do not include the first one on the list, (no contravention of an order etc).  This is only a statutory ground under the Traffic Management Act 2004.
Yes it is, see paragraph 1(4)(b) here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/schedule/1/paragraph/1/enacted

The website is more helpful:



To understand why see the cases on rows 587 to 603 here (click the case name in column D to open).

Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvwpavAptkE

GSV is out of date so it would be helpful if @Haveringresident could get us some photos of the main road, both to show the visibility of the signs from St. Marys Lane and also to check for advance warning signs, ideally a photo from around here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/bM9qsxWHzGKFawt59

The traffic order is The Havering (Traffic Movement and Speed Limit Regulations) (Consolidation) Order 2017 and the map tile is here.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Incandescent

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Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2024, 01:04:46 am »
I stand corrected !

I think I got confused with "procedural impropriety".
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Haveringresident

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Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2024, 08:02:15 am »
I believe I have until tomorrow to pay if I have no reason to appeal-date of notice 19th June tomorrow is the 14th day I believe.
I will take time to read all the info above
I have taken a short clip from my web cam and slowed it down - on my One drive. From 28 June
I'm not aware of any signs in St Mary's Lane or from the other direction but will try and double check today.
The only sign I saw (or didn't see) was just before the entry to the prophibited area

https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ap8lM3AI_i7_hJI8N_3nz6mOEIEzCw?e=KP1ACB
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Hippocrates

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Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2024, 08:47:25 am »
Quote from: Haveringresident on June 30, 2024, 09:55:52 pm
You said where previously advised. I've not seen any other advice or where is says it is unenforceable.
Could you enlarge on this info please
Thanks
I advised this on a similar thread. Just say the PCN contains information to be included on an entirely different PCN in a separate legislation and therefore is a nonsense.
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

Haveringresident

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Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2024, 03:50:20 pm »
I don't seem to be able to include the latest quote from Hippocrates


I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean by the info on PCN being on an entirely different PCN etc
« Last Edit: July 01, 2024, 03:58:05 pm by Haveringresident »
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Haveringresident

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Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2024, 04:02:05 pm »
As requested a quick video clip of the road with previous signage (which I didn't see) plus photos of the signage close up on One Drive : https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ap8lM3AI_i7_hJI-uAoaJDT18ru4HQ?e=XWQSep


I also read the details in the excel cases 587-603 in which similar cases appear to relate to details with the PCN being different to those details on the council online drop down on the website which I don't believe apply here ?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2024, 04:06:42 pm by Haveringresident »
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Hippocrates

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Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2024, 04:09:22 pm »
Quote from: Haveringresident on July 01, 2024, 03:50:20 pm
I don't seem to be able to include the latest quote from Hippocrates


I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean by the info on PCN being on an entirely different PCN etc
The ground about the traffic order belongs to parking legislation therefore it iw wrong and misleading to include it in this moving traffic PCN.
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

Haveringresident

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Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2024, 04:21:27 pm »
I'm being a bit thick here but how do I explain this in the details for the appeal as I can't find the info that you refer to on the PCN and thought that was also mentioned by Incandecent and disputed by cp8759?
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