3. Vehicle taken without Consent
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mmd

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Vehicle taken without Consent
« on: July 11, 2024, 05:14:28 pm »
My partner (who is insured on my car) took the vehicle onto Stanmore Broadway (HA7) and has incurred a fine by going into an area which was no entry. As a regular visitor to this area, I enquired how this happened and she mentioned that there are two very similar looking points on Stanmore Broadway - one motorist can enter and another that has a no entry. Crying baby in tow, she made this mistake after my daughter had just vomited (on a hot summer's day). Given, this PCN was issued in my name, I appealed on the basis that the car was taken without my consent, which the council reject as 'unless the vehicle was reported as stolen' they will not transfer liability.
Is there any recourse here?
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PallasAthena

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Re: Vehicle taken without Consent
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2024, 05:40:44 pm »
Are you willing to report your partner to the police for having taken your car without your consent, an offence under section 12 of the Theft Act 1968? Putting your partner in the frame for an offence that, theoretically at least, is an imprisonable offence in order to avoid a PCN seems like a bad idea to me.

Had you specifically told her she was not permitted to drive your car that day? Even though she had your child in the car and is insured to drive it? Is the car regularly used by both of you as a family car?  If you have put her on the insurance you would struggle to convince the police or anyone else that she didn't have your permission to drive it. And she would need to confirn that she had actual knowledge that she drove without your consent for the TWOC offence to be proved. Will she do that, and lay herself open to prosecution?

There may be ways to avoid this but claiming your partner had taken your car without your consent (in effect, "stolen" it) doesn't seem to me to be the best route. I assume you are not wanting to destroy your relationship.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2024, 06:00:26 pm by PallasAthena »
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666

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Re: Vehicle taken without Consent
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2024, 05:43:39 pm »
Was the car really taken without your consent? If so, why did you not report it?

Do you really want to turn a very minor non-criminal matter into a criminal charge for one or both of you?

What are you trying to achieve by "transferring liability?"
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mickR

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Re: Vehicle taken without Consent
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2024, 05:45:46 pm »
I thought there was an argument for TWOC that didn't constitute theft
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Southpaw82

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Re: Vehicle taken without Consent
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2024, 05:53:26 pm »
Quote from: mickR on July 11, 2024, 05:45:46 pm
I thought there was an argument for TWOC that didn't constitute theft

TWOC was brought in specifically because theft was often not an appropriate charge. Do you perhaps mean that the definition of TWOC is different to “the vehicle was taken without my consent”, or that the TWOC-er might have a defence to the criminal charge?

Nevertheless, the assertion that the vehicle was taken without consent seems contrived.
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mmd

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Re: Vehicle taken without Consent
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2024, 05:59:28 pm »
100% contrived. Given, I haven't much experience in this domain, I thought TWOC would easily exonerate me. In any case, it  seems unfair that this PCN is on me when I wasn't the driver.
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mickR

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Re: Vehicle taken without Consent
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2024, 06:01:33 pm »
@SP very possibly what I was thinking of. I remember someone coming up with another argument for two. maybe I was misunderstanding what they were getting at.
the suggestion that in this case it's bolox contrived hasn't escaped me  ;)
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Boomer

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Re: Vehicle taken without Consent
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2024, 06:58:00 pm »
mmd,

howz about posting a copy of the PCN (with personal details removed) so that we can see _exactly_ what you have been accused of?

Also your response, and the council's rejection letter.
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mickR

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Re: Vehicle taken without Consent
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2024, 07:23:13 pm »
^ this
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mmd

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Re: Vehicle taken without Consent
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2024, 10:20:58 am »
I do not have a copy of the initial PCN notification from the Council.

Here's what is presented online:

Contravention: Failing To Comply With A No Entry Restriction
Date: 2024-06-0202 Jun, 2024
Time: 16:27
Location: THE BROADWAY (NEAR SIDE OF No 66)
Charge outstanding: £65
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mmd

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Re: Vehicle taken without Consent
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2024, 10:39:16 am »
Unable to post photos.

Here's the council's rejection note which I have typed out:

Notice of Rejection of Representations. Your case comes under the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003

PCN number: HR75194365
Date of Contravention: 02 Jun 2024
Location: The Broadway (near side of no.66)
Vehicle Reg: BJ14YFL

Thank you for writing to us.

We have carefully considered what you say but have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
We sent you the PCN because our camera shows your vehicle disobeying a 'no entry' sign. The sign is round, red, and has a horizontal white line across it.

I have noted the comments made in your representation. As the owner, you are responsible for the PCN. I understand the vehicle was taken without your consent, however, unless the vehicle has been reported as stolen to the police, we are unable to transfer the liability.

You have these choices:
i. You can pay discount charge of £65. You have 14 days...
ii. You can pay £130 if you miss the discount period..
iii. You can appeal to
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Boomer

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Re: Vehicle taken without Consent
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2024, 11:03:53 am »
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John U.K.

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Re: Vehicle taken without Consent
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2024, 12:22:30 pm »
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The Rookie

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Re: Vehicle taken without Consent
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2024, 02:00:44 pm »
Quote from: mmd on July 11, 2024, 05:14:28 pm
My partner (who is insured on my car)
So you insured someone on that car with no consent to use it?  :D  :D  :D  :D

Nuts!  Whether you think it fair or not that you are liable, the law says you are unless they genuinely didn't have consent to use it which I think you'll struggle to show.  Not least when they call you a lying Effer for trying to stitch them up, at which point you may face an 'attempt to pervert the course of justice' charge yourself (going rate, 12 months learning to enjoy the taste of traditional Scottish breakfast fair).
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There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!
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