Author Topic: Dodgy Signage!! A20 Sidcup  (Read 428 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

guest46

  • Guest
Dodgy Signage!! A20 Sidcup
« on: January 31, 2024, 04:38:17 pm »
https://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/24078266.a20-eastbound-sidcup-leads-dozens-speeding-fines/

Apparently loads of driver caught and paid up. Customer for this site methinks (next time)

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter


guest968

  • Guest
Re: Dodgy Signage!! A20 Sidcup
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2024, 05:01:18 pm »
This has been widely reported.

Yes, there was a rogue sign (placed there apparently by an unauthorised member of the public in what the police are investigating as an attempt to pervert the course of justice), but the problem for all the drivers claiming that it caused them to speed is that such a claim is nonsense.

That stretch of road has average speed measuring cameras.  The fake sign was close to the second camera, and if you do the maths it's impossible for any driver's average speed to have exceeded the threshold for prosecution if they accelerated to 50 when they passed the sign if they'd been driving at the correct speed before it. 

Any driver who got a speeding ticket had to have already been speeding past all the 40mph signs before the 50mph ones.

It may be that even though that section of the A20 was correctly signed when a temporary speed limit was put in place, the presence of the sign invalidated the entire traffic order until it was removed, but that's the only grounds for appeal anybody has - saying "I wouldn't have been speeding if that sign hadn't been there" is demonstrably untrue.

slapdash

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 280
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Dodgy Signage!! A20 Sidcup
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2024, 09:59:06 am »
It would likely have caught me (bang to rights but frustrating).

I'd have been speeding at +10% +1 in the expectation of being under the threshold. At the 50 sign I would have done the same putting me over the threshold between 2 cameras.

It wouldn't have made me speed. I would have been. But it would have made me get caught.
Like Like x 1 View List

guest968

  • Guest
Re: Dodgy Signage!! A20 Sidcup
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2024, 07:04:39 pm »
Obviously, slapdash, the way for you to avoid such problems is to stop regarding speed limits as some sort of semi-official guidance, and start obeying the law.

slapdash

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 280
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Dodgy Signage!! A20 Sidcup
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2024, 07:38:47 pm »
There is, of course, that option.

Apparently only around 10% of licences have points  so collectively we must be fairly law abiding.

I found it quite surprising that 62,000 NIP had allegedly been produced on that stretch in a 2 month period. That's quite a chunk when only a bit over 1 mln are produced nationally over a full year.


slapdash

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 280
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Dodgy Signage!! A20 Sidcup
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2024, 10:28:50 pm »
I don't believe the enforcement has anything to do with TfL, they may have the wrong target in their sights.

If I were on the receiving end of one, and I was on 9pts, I would probably try NG. Slim chance of success though.


cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4599
  • Karma: +107/-4
    • View Profile
Re: Dodgy Signage!! A20 Sidcup
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2024, 12:18:35 am »
I don't believe the enforcement has anything to do with TfL
Indeed, TFL has nothing to do with enforcement, though they are of course responsible for providing adequate signage.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

slapdash

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 280
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Dodgy Signage!! A20 Sidcup
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2024, 06:06:05 am »
Perhaps an argument that it was inadequate - at least from the fake sign - due to lack of maintenance could be attempted.

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4599
  • Karma: +107/-4
    • View Profile
Re: Dodgy Signage!! A20 Sidcup
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2024, 08:24:29 am »
Perhaps an argument that it was inadequate - at least from the fake sign - due to lack of maintenance could be attempted.
I doubt it, as it's been calculated that those who were caught must have been exceeding the limit prior to the fake sign in any event.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

guest968

  • Guest
Re: Dodgy Signage!! A20 Sidcup
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2024, 12:43:49 am »
OK guys - I give up, you all win.
 
This is clearly a site with a very definite political bias and there are people here removing, or having removed, any posts which do not conform to their beliefs.

I shan't trouble you any more.
Dislike Dislike x 1 View List

slapdash

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 280
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Dodgy Signage!! A20 Sidcup
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2024, 09:44:45 am »
I wondered where your reply had gone.