Author Topic: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre, Coventry  (Read 565 times)

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H C Andersen

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Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre, Coventry
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2024, 11:37:39 am »
Aren't we off-course.

The creditor is UKPC, not Skoda.
I cannot find anything in Skoda's correspondence which suggests they'll make any financial demands upon you other than they receive a 'second notification'.

But IMO you have no reason to think they will because:

UKPC have sent you a NTH;
And a Final Demand;
And an unseen letter(from a 'debt collector').

IMO, ignore Skoda* as regards the NTH, they're a distraction from what you should be doing which is appealing/writing to UKPC.

Apparently the UKPC we site won't let you appeal.

None the less, you should write to them and appeal.

Why?

Because it's what a normal motorist would do who has taken the time to establish the relative legal positions of the creditor and hirer and discovered that the creditor may not legally pursue the hirer of the car as hirer. The hirer then should communicate this to the creditor at the earliest possible opportunity. You can't do this online, so write to them.
In effect, the hirer would be setting out their cast-iron defence to prevent the creditor incurring unnecessary and irrecoverable costs by continuing to pursue the matter. 

The legal position as I see it:
Failure to provide the mandatory docs under para. 14 to Schedule 4;
Failure to state correct practically all the mandatory periods and conditions applicable under para. 4 as regards having the right to enforce against the hirer.

*-if Skoda do write, then come back.
**- read para. 4 and see what a NTH should contain: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

slapdash

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Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre, Coventry
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2024, 12:32:41 pm »
Aren't we off-course.

The creditor is UKPC, not Skoda.

Yes, but ....

I did not say VWFS will pay it.

I did say, by policy, VWFS have a habit of paying any second invoice - irrespective of whether they have any contractual right to do so (and irrespective of whether they have any actual obligation).

The result of that is, in effect:-

"You can't do that".

"We just did, your move".

Thus, *if* VWFS do act as they have often done, op needs a different approach because they then have a contractual dispute with VWFS instead.

DWMB2

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Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre, Coventry
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2024, 12:42:25 pm »
Thus, *if* VWFS do act as they have often done, op needs a different approach because they then have a contractual dispute with VWFS instead.
Indeed, but so that this thread does not get unduly sidetracked by an issue that may not emerge, I suggest we cross that bridge if we come to it, and for now focus on the OP's dispute with UKPC.
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b789

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Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre, Coventry
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2024, 12:53:46 pm »
In their contract, a “parking charge” cannot come under the heading of “Fines”.

Trying to appeal this with UKPC is an exercise in futility. I have already told the OP to complain to UKPC, pointing out that they cannot be liable for the charge as the hirer and that UKPC have breached their ATA CoP by failing to adhere to the requirements of PoFA for the reasons stated.

UKPC either cancel the PCN or they are then reported to the BPA with the details. The BPAs response will then determine the next steps. The BPA will not do anything until the complaints procedure with the operator has been exhausted.

Additionally, the OP has received the NtH so liability has been transferred away from VWFS. UKPC cannot go back to them with another invoice. Even if they did, the OP would have a rock solid claim against them if they then went ahead and paid it.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2024, 01:05:16 pm by b789 »
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slapdash

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Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre, Coventry
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2024, 12:56:53 pm »
I wasn't trying to sidetrack merely alert the possibility of having to change direction. Fwiw my sons experience was 2 he ignored VWFS just paid (he got the "policy" letter. 1 he appealed went to debt collection etc. The likely trigger for the difference is obvious.

slapdash

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Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre, Coventry
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2024, 01:08:04 pm »
In their contract, a “parking charge” cannot come under the heading of “Fines”.

-------
Fines and charges.

You are responsible for the payment of any fines or charges relating to your vehicle, e.g. parking fines, fixed penalty notices, traffic camera offences, congestion charges, etc. If we are required to pay
a fine on your behalf, we will recharge you or your company along with an administration fee.
-----

The above are the words. Not entirely satifactory. A literal reading suggests they can only tell you you are responsible unless you have been convicted.

Ops variant in their actual contract may be different of course

b789

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Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre, Coventry
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2024, 01:15:07 pm »
OPs version has no mention of “charges” and only shows a list of “fines” under the sub heading of “Fines”.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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slapdash

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Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre, Coventry
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2024, 01:48:07 pm »
Trying not to annoy mod again.

It seems reasonable to assume that what the OP posted from their email introduction is a verbatim extract from the signed contract.

On a strict reading (as is often pointed out) one can only get fined by a court.

In popular parlance a fixed penalty or a decrim penalty might reasonably be described as a fine. An invoice for a private charge ? No. Not least because of the lack of any statutory enforcement framework.

If a vehicle provider - and something like 80% of vehicles are provided by some form of 3rd party agreement - wishes to use it contract to transfer, or in many cases pay and recharge then it has a duty to be accurate.

It can't be that hard for providers to cover it, and the PPCs to produce notices that are not defective.



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H C Andersen

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Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre, Coventry
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2024, 02:14:44 pm »
OP, IMO you should forget about VWFS for now and deal with UKPC.

DWMB2 gave you a detailed form of appeal on 28 April, within UKPC's arbitrary appeal period.
But an appeal was not made.
UKPC haven't heard from you and so have gone into auto mode i.e. sending reminder and then debt collector letters. Standard stuff.

IMO, you must write to them along the lines set out earlier. They can regard or disregard, that's their choice. But you should show them that you know the law and that they are on to a loser should they proceed to court.

The longer you wait to communicate the more confident they become that they've found another mug who will pay eventually after they've applied their literary thumbscrews.
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_wooky_

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Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre, Coventry
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2024, 03:37:21 pm »
After lots of letters from different debt collection agencies, my wife received this claim form in the post on Friday.

As this is our first rodeo, advice about how to respond would be appreciated.

I've re-read the thread though I'm not 100% sure of the exact course of action from here.

Thanks for your patience and your advice 🙏❤️

DWMB2

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Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre, Coventry
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2024, 03:54:50 pm »
You have blurred out the particulars of claim, but we need to see those. They form the basis of the claim against you.
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b789

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Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre, Coventry
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2024, 04:15:16 pm »
Why on earth would you redact the Particulars of Claim (PoC)? it is those PoC that will decide on how you (your wife) defends this. If you're really paranoid about revealing the pot, show us the "Reason".

We have a standard short defence and draft order for this. I can give you odds of 1000:1 that this will either be struck out or discontinued early next year.

With an issue date of 2nd October, you have until Monday 21st October to Acknowledge Service (AoS) of the claim. Here is a link to a PDF that explains exactly how to do the AoS on MCOL.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvqu3bask5m0zir/money-claim-online-How-to-Acknowledge.pdf?dl=0

There is nothing to be gained by delaying the AoS. Once the AoS has been done, you will then have until 4pm on Monday 4th November to file the defence.

Whilst you may do all the legwork on this, it must all be done in the defendants name, your wife, if it's her name on the claim form.

Let us know when you have completed the AoS and we will provide the defence and draft order to go with it which will be submitted as PDF attachments to an email. Do not, under any circumstances, use the MCOL defence submission.
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_wooky_

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Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre, Coventry
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2024, 04:52:00 pm »
Please remember this is our first time at bat. Elsewhere in this forum there is advice about blurring out identifying information. I thought I was doing the right thing.

Here are the Particulars of Claim...

https://imgur.com/qenb1NP

I shall proceed with the AoS now.

Thanks 🙏❤️

b789

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Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre, Coventry
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2024, 05:04:44 pm »
Thank you. To help you understand why these are easy to defend, consider what would be the situation if you had no prior knowledge of the PCN and the first you know about the was the allegation in the Particulars of Claim (PoC). How could you defend against the woefully inadequate information in there?

Check the date they claim the PCN was "issued". I will place money on the fact that it was not "issued" on that date. A PCN NtK can only be issued after they apply for and receive the Keepers data from the DVLA. That can never happen on the date of the alleged contravention.

Based on the PoC, what was the exact contractual term the driver is alleged to have breached? Simply stating the reason as "vehicle on site in excess of paid for time/parked without making a valid payment" does not state the precise wording of the clause they are relying on.

How long was the vehicle at the location before the breach of contract occurred?

How is the statutory interest calculated? From what date has it been calculated and has it been calculated on the principal sum or on the total sum being claimed.

What portion of the sum being claimed is being claimed as parking charges and what portion is claimed as damages?

I could go on, but you see the point I am getting at, hopefully.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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_wooky_

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Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre, Coventry
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2024, 05:25:18 pm »
Quote
I shall proceed with the AoS now.

Done ✅