Author Topic: Private Parking Solutions - PCN received - Uxbridge industrial estate  (Read 8911 times)

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Re: Private Parking Solutions - PCN received - Uxbridge industrial estate
« Reply #15 on: »



At the Cowley Mill Road entrance, there are no entry signs.
Along Wallingford Road and Salisbury Road there are signs every 25m or so on each side
At the Arundel Road entrance there are entry signs on each side

All the signs are the same.

Re: Private Parking Solutions - PCN received - Uxbridge industrial estate
« Reply #16 on: »
Besides close ups of the signs, we could do with some general overviews of the area and how obvious the signs appear.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Private Parking Solutions - PCN received - Uxbridge industrial estate
« Reply #17 on: »
However, is there any chance you can get some photos of the general layout of the are and any signs that they purport form the contract?
Sorry, I'm not local to the area.

These are the images from PPS:













Re: Private Parking Solutions - PCN received - Uxbridge industrial estate
« Reply #18 on: »
For what it's worth, I can confirm that if you enter the estate form the Cowley Mill Road entrance (as seems to be the case judging by the direction your car is facing) then there is no sign that you will see that is positioned across the direction of travel, they are all along the direction of travel.

Re: Private Parking Solutions - PCN received - Uxbridge industrial estate
« Reply #19 on: »
It would seem that this is what they're relying on as the entrance sign:


That's rubbish - not at all prominent for drivers turning into the road, and from its location one could be forgiven for thinking it applies to the car park of the warehouse building behind it, rather than the road. Prominent entrance signage is required for all private car parks, but is in my view even more important on private roads where, without prominent signage, it is not immediately obvious that you are entering private land that may be subject to private parking controls.

That signage also doesn't appear to be offering a contract - what consideration is offered by a sign that simply prohibits parking rather than inviting parking on certain terms?

Re: Private Parking Solutions - PCN received - Uxbridge industrial estate
« Reply #20 on: »
Further to DWMB2's remark about the prominence of one of their signs...

According to the sign in photos 3/4...

"This car park is controlled by Warden Patrols"

The car is parked on a road, not in a car park. The sign is also next to what could be assumed to be a car park (two cars shown parked).

What looks like a similar sign (photos 1/2/5/6/7) is on a lamp post on the outside of what looks like another car park.

Re: Private Parking Solutions - PCN received - Uxbridge industrial estate
« Reply #21 on: »
Will prepare a POPLA appeal for you.
Did you manage to prepare an appeal for me?

Re: Private Parking Solutions - PCN received - Uxbridge industrial estate
« Reply #22 on: »
That signage also doesn't appear to be offering a contract - what consideration is offered by a sign that simply prohibits parking rather than inviting parking on certain terms?

"forbidding" signage which cannot offer a contract
Quote from: andy_foster
Mick, you are a very, very bad man

Re: Private Parking Solutions - PCN received - Uxbridge industrial estate
« Reply #23 on: »
There are evidential photos of the vehicle being stationary for 11 minutes and 51 seconds, which precludes using consideration period as an argument. It is going to hinge on no contractual liability as no contract can be formed by the signage.

The sign is primarily prohibitory, listing multiple restrictions:

“No parking, waiting, loading or unloading on the roads at any time.”

“No parking, waiting, loading or unloading on the footpaths at any time.”

“No causing obstructions at any time.”

These prohibitions do not suggest an offer to allow parking under conditions. instead, they explicitly state what actions are not permitted. This does not form an offer that can be accepted by conduct.

The sign states: “£100 Parking Charge Notice reduced to £60 if paid within 14 days.” However, this charge is presented as a penalty for non-compliance with the prohibitions rather than as an offer for parking under conditions. There is no clear wording indicating that parking is allowed if certain conditions are met and that non-compliance will result in a charge.

The wording implies that the £100 charge is a consequence of breaching the prohibitions, but it does not indicate that the driver is entering into a contract by parking.

There is no explicit offer made to drivers in terms of allowing them to park under specific conditions. The sign simply lists prohibited actions without providing terms for permitted use.

There is no consideration offered to the driver (e.g., the right to park under specified conditions). Instead, the sign only lists what is forbidden and mentions a charge as a penalty.

The mention of a “Parking Charge Notice” suggests an intention to enforce penalties, but it does not clearly state that the driver is entering into a binding contract by parking there. The language used (“agree to pay”) is conditional and can only be interpreted as a deterrent rather than an offer.

Therefore, the signs as worded, are incapable of forming a valid contract. They fails to present an offer that a driver can accept by conduct. They are solely prohibitory, listing only what is not allowed without any indication that parking is allowed under certain conditions with a corresponding charge for non-compliance. The £100 charge appears as a deterrent or penalty rather than a term of a contract that the driver consents to by parking.

For the signs to be capable of forming a contract, they would need to:

1. Clearly state that parking is permitted under certain conditions.

2. Specify that by parking in the area, the driver agrees to those conditions and accepts the stated charge for non-compliance.

3. Use clear language that conveys an offer and the acceptance of terms, leading to the formation of a binding agreement.

They don’t do any of those things.

Also, the identification of the location on the Notice to Keeper (NtK) must be sufficiently clear to enable the recipient to understand exactly where the parking event occurred. Under PoFA, Paragraph 7(2)(a) requires that the relevant land where the vehicle was parked is described with enough detail to ensure the keeper is aware of the specific location.

The NtK mentions the location as "UXBRIDGE IND EST, Wallingford Rd, Salisbury Rd, Arundel Rd, UXBRIDGE, UB8 2RZ," which includes the name of the industrial estate and three different roads within it. Listing multiple roads without specifying the exact road or more precise details where the vehicle was allegedly parked creates ambiguity. The keeper cannot discern the exact location or spot within the industrial estate where the alleged breach occurred.

PoFA requires that the location be identified with enough particularity so that a reasonable person can understand where the alleged contravention took place. The inclusion of multiple roads and only a general reference to an industrial estate falls short of providing enough clarity, especially if the estate is large or comprises multiple car parks or different parking arrangements.

For full PoFA compliance, the NtK should specify which road or part of the industrial estate the vehicle was parked on to leave no doubt as to the location. Without this, the location is not defined with enough particularity to meet PoFA requirements.

So, there can be no Keeper liability and the POPLA appeal must be made only as the Keeper with no obligation to identify the driver to an unregulated private parking company.

The other point to include in the POPLA appeal will be to put the operator to strict proof that it has valid authority from the landowner to issue PCNs in its own name at the specified location. A signed statement or witness testimony alone is insufficient. An unredacted copy of the contract or agreement between the landowner and the operator must be provided to demonstrate that such authority exists. This is essential to establish that the operator has the legal standing to enforce parking charges at this site.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Private Parking Solutions - PCN received - Uxbridge industrial estate
« Reply #24 on: »
POPLA appeal submitted.

Re: Private Parking Solutions - PCN received - Uxbridge industrial estate
« Reply #25 on: »
From: appeals@privateparkingsolutions.co.uk:
To: tango33@.....

Dear <tango33>,


Below is our statement to POPLA regarding the appeal case in the subject line above, and the evidence pack is attached to this email.


"Dear Assessor,

The contract that we are seeking payment on has arisen from a breach of the notified terms and conditions of parking stated on the signs that the landowner has requested us to erect and permitted to remain erected at this location. The evidence demonstrates that the signage, including three entrance signs, is clearly located to make motorists aware of the terms and conditions and the potential consequences of non-adherence to the terms have been made fully available "PRIVATE ROAD. This car park is controlled by Warden Patrols. If you fail to comply with any of the terms and conditions stated below at any time you agree to pay a £100 Parking Charge Notice. No parking, waiting loading or unloading on the roads and footpaths at any time. By parking on this private land you agree to comply with these terms and conditions (the parking contract) and accept liability to pay the fee for unauthorised parking. Do not park here unless you agree to the terms and conditions displayed."
It should be noted that when entering into a private parking environment, the landowner is entitled to set its own parking terms and conditions that they consider are necessary to form a contract with a motorist. The contract that the private landowner offers is within the terms and conditions of parking, and these are set out in the signage that is offered on site. The evidence demonstrates that the terms and conditions were adequately brought to the appellant's attention; they parked a few feet away from a sign. At this site, parking on the roads is forbidden, as it may cause a potential hazard or obstruction to vehicles leaving or entering the site. However, the photographs show that vehicle registration NL09WRV is stationary on the road where parking is not permitted as part of the terms and conditions stated. As the appellant has parked in a restricted area, they became liable for a parking charge.
A PCN is a parking charge issued for a breach of contract and based on a contractually agreed sum, which is stated on the signage. Pursuant to the guidance set out in the Supreme Court’s decision in ParkingEye v Beavis and in accordance with the BPA Code of Practice, a reasonable charge would be £100. The Court’s full judgement in the case is available online should the appellant want to read it.
It is important to note we, operators, do not have to issue a notice directly to the driver of the vehicle, as we can hold the keeper of the vehicle liable for the charge. The evidence does not indicate that the keeper (the appellant) provided us with the relevant information to transfer liability to the driver. By failing to provide the driver's details, the appellant has assumed liability for this PCN.
We would also like to advise that the postcode on the PCN is sufficient for the motorist to determine where the vehicle was parked at the time of the contravention. According to the contract we have with the landowner, the site name is 'Uxbridge Industrial Estate'. The roads that fall within the Uxbridge Industrial Estate site are Wallingford Road, Salisbury Road and Arundel Road. These collectively make up ‘Uxbridge Industrial Estate’. The postcode refers to Uxbridge Industrial Estate,  which is where the postcode on the PCN refers to. Ultimately, it is the driver's responsibility to read the signs and act in accordance with the terms and conditions applicable to the site to avoid the possibility of a PCN being issued."


(20 attachments, some are photos already posted)



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Re: Private Parking Solutions - PCN received - Uxbridge industrial estate
« Reply #26 on: »
Remainder of new attachments.



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Re: Private Parking Solutions - PCN received - Uxbridge industrial estate
« Reply #27 on: »
Email dated 14/11/24:

Dear <tango33>,

Your parking charge appeal against Private Parking Solution (London) - EW.

Private Parking Solution (London) - EW has now uploaded its evidence to your appeal. This will be available for you to view by clicking here

Please note: some evidence may not show immediately, if it is not currently available on your account please check back later before contacting us.

You have seven days from the date of this correspondence to provide comments on the evidence uploaded by Private Parking Solution (London) - EW.

Please note that these comments must relate to the grounds of appeal you submitted when first lodging your appeal with POPLA, we do not accept new grounds of appeal or evidence at this stage

Any comments received after the period of seven days has ended will not be considered and we will progress your appeal for assessment. Therefore, if you have any issues with the evidence uploaded by Private Parking Solution (London) - EW such as being unable to view it online, please contact POPLA immediately via phone - 0330 1596 126, or email - info@popla.co.uk, so that we can look to rectify this as soon as possible.

After this period has ended, we will aim to issue our decision as quickly as possible. The decision we reach is final and binding. When the decision is reached there is no further option for appeal.

Yours sincerely

POPLA Team

Re: Private Parking Solutions - PCN received - Uxbridge industrial estate
« Reply #28 on: »
You can only use the POPLA response webform which does not allow formatting and is limited to 10,000 characters to respond. Use the following to cut and paste into the webform as your response to the operators comments:

Quote
Response to Operator’s Submission

It is striking how little of the operator's response actually addresses the points raised in the appeal. Instead of tackling the substantive issues, the operator has opted for the “copy-paste and hope for the best” approach, regurgitating generic statements about signage and Beavis. This is disappointing, albeit unsurprising, given the lack of substance in their claim.

1. Signage is Prohibitory, Not Contractual

The appeal made a clear, detailed argument about why the signage cannot form a contractual agreement.

The signage is purely prohibitory, stating what is not allowed: “No parking, waiting, loading or unloading”. There is no clear offer to park under specific conditions, and the charge is presented as a penalty for breaching prohibitions, not as part of a contract.

The operator’s response? Silence. Instead of addressing this fundamental flaw in their case, they parrot the phrase “the signage forms a contract” without even attempting to explain how a prohibition can magically transform into an offer. Are we supposed to take their word for it? Perhaps they’re hoping POPLA will.

2. Misplaced Reliance on ParkingEye v Beavis

It’s almost amusing how the operator clings to ParkingEye v Beavis as if it’s a magic wand to justify every parking charge ever issued. However, the Beavis case involved signage that clearly offered terms—free parking for two hours, with charges for overstaying. Here, the signage does no such thing. Instead, it prohibits parking altogether. How can a driver agree to terms when the sign explicitly forbids the very act required to accept those terms?

Of course, the operator doesn’t bother to explain this glaring inconsistency. They just drop the Beavis name and hope no one notices it doesn’t apply.

3. Ambiguity of Location

The appeal pointed out that the Notice to Keeper (NtK) fails to identify the location of the alleged contravention with sufficient clarity, as required by Paragraph 7(2)(a) of PoFA. Listing an entire industrial estate and three different roads is not specific enough to identify where the vehicle was supposedly parked.

The operator’s response? They casually brush this off, claiming the “post code” is sufficient. Really? A post code that covers multiple roads and areas is supposed to pinpoint the exact location of a parking contravention? This lack of precision violates PoFA, and the operator’s dismissal of this point is, frankly, an insult to anyone with an ounce of intelligence.

4. Landowner Authority

The operator claims to have a contract with the landowner authorising them to issue Parking Charge Notices (PCNs) at this location. But where is this contract? Apparently, we are simply meant to take their word for it. Under Section 7 of the BPA Code of Practice, operators are required to have clear, written authorisation from the landowner, and when challenged, they must actually produce it. Saying “we have a contract” isn’t evidence—it’s just wishful thinking.

The presence of signage does not prove anything either. Signs can be put up by anyone. Without an unredacted landowner agreement, how can we verify:

(a) That the operator is even authorised to issue PCNs at this specific site.
(b) That they are permitted to pursue charges in their own name, as opposed to acting as a mere agent.
(c) That the terms on the signage comply with the landowner’s instructions.
(d) That the contract was still valid at the time of the alleged breach (a crucial point they often “forget” to clarify).

The BPA Code of Practice does not allow operators to rely on vague assurances or witness statements. It is clear... they must provide proof when asked. However, here we are with no contract, no transparency, and just a lot of hand-waving about landowner authority. If a valid, current contract exists, what possible reason could they have for withholding it? The lack of evidence speaks volumes.

Let us be clear... POPLA cannot and should not assume that the operator has authority simply because there are signs on-site. Assuming authority from signage alone would render the BPA Code of Practice pointless, as it would allow any operator to bypass their obligations by sticking up a few signs. The absence of an unredacted contract raises serious questions about whether the operator even has the legal standing to issue or enforce PCNs at all.

This is a fundamental issue. Without proof of landowner authority, the operator’s case collapses. POPLA must demand to see the actual contract to verify that the operator is acting lawfully. If the operator refuses or fails to provide this evidence, the appeal must succeed.

5. PoFA Non-Compliance

The appeal highlighted several failings in the NtK, including:

(a) Ambiguous location (already covered).
(b) No invitation for the keeper to pay, as required by Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i).

The operator’s response? Nothing. Instead, they pivot to the tired refrain about “keeper liability” as though merely repeating the words “keeper liable” makes it true. PoFA’s requirements are strict, and partial compliance cannot be acceptable. The operator’s silence on these specific points is as good as an admission.

6. Signage Clarity

The operator claims the signage is “clearly located” and that the driver parked “a few feet away” from a sign. They provide no meaningful evidence that the signage is:

(a) Legible from a driver’s perspective.
(b) Visible under all conditions.
(c) Clear enough to communicate a contractual offer.

Instead, they expect everyone to simply accept their assertion. Unfortunately for them, assertions are not evidence.

7. Charge is Disproportionate

The operator attempts to justify the £100 charge by calling it “reasonable” and pointing to Beavis. Once again, they ignore the fundamental difference... in Beavis, the charge was commercially justified due to the management of free parking. Here, the charge is nothing more than a penalty for breaching prohibitions. It is punitive, not contractual, and lacks any commercial justification.

If the operator has a reasoned explanation for why this charge is “reasonable,” they have chosen not to share it. Presumably, because they do not have one.

Summary

The operator’s response fails to address the points raised in the appeal. Instead, they rely on generic statements, irrelevant case law, and a complete lack of evidence. Their inability to engage with the appeal’s key arguments is telling... they don’t have a case.

The appeal must succeed for the following reasons:

(a) The signage is prohibitory and incapable of forming a contract.
(b) The NtK fails to comply with PoFA requirements, particularly regarding location and keeper liability.
(c) The operator has not provided proof of landowner authority.
(d) The charge is punitive and lacks justification under Beavis.
(e) The operator’s response is, at best, inadequate and, at worst, an insult to the intelligence of everyone involved. POPLA should uphold the appeal.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Private Parking Solutions - PCN received - Uxbridge industrial estate
« Reply #29 on: »
Re. "4. Landowner Authority", is the contract attached to the post not valid?