Author Topic: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed  (Read 114 times)

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sarahknows

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PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
« on: February 29, 2024, 02:10:14 pm »
The PCN was for parking on paved area when the signage says parking on paved area is not allowed (this seems to be forbidding signage). I was barely parked as I was just unloading a passenger, maximum 5 mins.

The notice came to the registered owner, my husband. However I was driving.

I parked for under 5 minutes to allow my daughter (a child) to enter the residence safely. She could not find the doorbell so I was out of the car to ring it and then back. In total it was less than 5 minutes.

My husband sent the first appeal making it clear the parking was for only a few mins and the circumstances. It was rejected. I then took over as I did not want to pay however my husband did not want to be involved and said I must inform them to address me as he did not want to be caught up and it affect his credit rating etc.

https://imgur.com/a/HZr7s3X
https://imgur.com/a/HZr7s3X
I have uploaded photos to show:
- the signage
- the car (it seems to have been observed for a minute)
- the correspondence from them
- both the initial appeal and the second appeal. No appeal was submitted to IAS as I read conflicting messages suggesting it is pointless.

I would really like to take initiative to avoid threatening letters coming through the door as my husband will cave and pay up and I think it is completely unfair. Is there anyway to nip this or will I need to wait for them to take it to court?

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H C Andersen

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Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2024, 02:39:05 pm »
Your husband received a Notice to Keeper, yes?

He appealed. We should see this and their reply.

' I then took over as I did not want to pay however my husband did not want to be involved and said I must inform them to address me as he did not want to be caught up and it affect his credit rating etc.'.

You cannot 'take over', you have no standing - yet.

All your husband can do is to appeal to POPLA or name you as driver.

Barring stupidity or a bizarre set of postal anomalies, including you moving address, this process would not affect anyone's credit rating.

guest46

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Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2024, 03:10:47 pm »
Can't zoom the images enough  - do the time stamps on the images proivided to you match the <5 minutes you were there? did you return later to collect the child and park again maybe?

sarahknows

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Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2024, 03:26:46 pm »
It was a Notice to Keeper.

The last 2 pages of the link are in relation to the first appeal from my husband and then the second appeal from me advising them to not contact my husband anymore and address me.

The images shared with me as evidence only show 2 minutes of observation. 17.19 to 17.20, you can see in the last minute the driver is getting back into the car so left immediately after.

I might have come back later but would not necessarily have parked in exactly the same place as I would have had to get out of the car for collection. Also the images only show the period around 17.19, there are no images of another period. The sign is very forbidding and does not appear to allow any parking on paved areas.

b789

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Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2024, 03:34:05 pm »
Photos show 42 seconds of parking. 17:19:41 to 17:20:23

NtK is not PoFa compliant as 9(2)(e)(ii) requires that the NtK must invite the keeper to pass the NtK to the driver.

Only a judge will settle this and a valid defence is Jopson v Homeguard where on appeal, it was decided that loading and unloading is not parking.

Unless the transfer of liability was completed in the correct manner, the keeper, your husband, is still the only person they will deal with. It is a pity that your husband is prepared to throw you under the bus.

For now, your husband needs to formally transfer liability to yourself as the driver using their tear-off form on the back of the NtK if he wants to be rid of anything to do with it. You then, as the admitted driver, will need to handle it.

You are dealing with a firm of ex-clamper thugs who care about nothing except getting your hard earned cash off you. This firm are an IPC member and so POPLA is not an option and their IAS appeals service is a kangaroo court and not worth the effort of dealing with.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2024, 03:43:31 pm by b789 »

sarahknows

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Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2024, 03:42:39 pm »
They have invited the keeper to provide the name and address of the driver in the 5th paragraph second bullet.

b789

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Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2024, 03:52:14 pm »
Please have a read of PoFA 9(2)(e)(ii) which states as follows:

[The notice must] state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—

(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges; or

(ii)if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;

The NtK does not mention anything about passing the notice to the driver.

However, this is a moot point as the driver has now been identified and is liable. It would have been a valid point if your husband hadn't decided to throw you under the bus.

As you have now passed the appeals process, you need to be prepared to weather a storm of useless debt collector letters which are designed to get low hanging fruit on the gullible tree to capitulate and pay into the scam. You will need to protect your husband from these. Unless you receive a Letter of Claim (loC) or similar worded letter giving you 30 days to pay or face a claim, there is nothing you can do.

They may never bother to actually go that far. However, you are dealing with a very greedy scammer who is likely to try it on in the hope that you will give in and pay up rather than defend a claim.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2024, 03:53:51 pm by b789 »

sarahknows

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Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2024, 04:14:03 pm »
Thanks so much. Sounds like there is no alternative apart from waiting for the threatening letters.

If they do take this to court what would be my defence? Will I need a solicitor etc or will I be able to handle this with all the help of you helpful people and chatGPT ;)

To be fair to my husband he just doesnt want the hassle and wanted to just pay up. He is the exact target for these type of threatening letters.


H C Andersen

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Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2024, 04:51:53 pm »
second appeal from me advising them to not contact my husband anymore and address me.

They should ignore, this matter has nothing to do with you. Your husband could name you as driver or authorise you in writing to act on his behalf and then you could if you want name yourself.

If they do take this to court what would be my defence. None, because until they write to you in your name then you won't have to defend anything.

Be clear. Until they write to you with a demand for payment then it is your husband as keeper who they would apparently hold liable - but whether successfully would depend upon whether the 'not PoFA compliant' argument would win in court.

You cannot unilaterally interject yourself into these proceedings.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2024, 04:55:15 pm by H C Andersen »

b789

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Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2024, 05:11:20 pm »
If your husband is not prepared to defend this then there are only a few option.

1. Husband pays into the scam, is marked as a "mug" for future reference, your family is £100 out of pocket and hopefully that is the end of the matter.
2. You husband transfers liability to you as advised above and you can then defend the PCN.
3. Do nothing and risk getting a CCJ by default.

You appear to much too sensible for option #3 and you are made of sterner stuff than your husband. So, ideally, option #2 is your best bet.

If this ever reaches a court, it is easy to defend. No solicitor is required and there are some solicitors on here who will be giving advice.

The "threatening letters" are just debt collector letters and you need to understand that they are powerless to do anything. They are a third party to the contract that has allegedly been breached. They usually work on a no-win, no-fee basis by using scary words such as "CCJ" and "bailiff". You can safely ignore them.

You defence would rely on many points and there is a template defence which you only have to edit one or two paragraphs. You would include Jopson v Homegard and if you need some seductive bedtime reading, have a look at it here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ezhkj6epu66l1r/JOPSON-V-HOMEGUARD-2906J-Approved.pdf?dl=0

It is an appeal judgment and so is persuasive on the lower court. The main point in that judgment is the fact that loading and unloading is not considered to be parking. There may be other cases that could be referenced but we can cross that bridge when we come to it.

Defending this would e a valuable life lesson. Unfortunately, our education system does nothing to teach anyone some basic facts that would assist them in understanding civil law. It never ceases to amaze me how many people have absolutely no understanding of what a CCJ is or how it can affect you. Considering most people will come across something like this at some point in their lives, the fact that nothing is taught about it, even at a basic level (or at least it wasn't when I was a lad) is astounding.

You will receive assistance and advice should this progress to a claim. It is nothing to be feared and and is just a process that needs to be understood.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2024, 05:16:28 pm by b789 »

sarahknows

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Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2024, 06:02:07 pm »
Thank you so much for your help. I will proceed on option 2. Can I just confirm what that really entails. Do I need to keep replying to the debt collection agency that I am not paying? Or do I just ignore the letters? What do I need to look out for to know it is now in the court phase?

I have just found 2 more correspondences. The latest one is now suggesting they are directing their communications to me so they seem to have accepted transferred liability just from my earlier appeal telling them to.

I have uploaded the communications in what I think is chronological order, (last 2 might be the other way around but the font was too little in the pics to see). Sorry for not providing this all at the start. I don't think it changes much except now they are communicating with me.

https://imgur.com/a/vwy7tf9

b789

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Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2024, 06:41:04 pm »
Without knowing who the NtK is addressed to we do not know who they are pursuing. Do you have a NtK addressed to you, not your husband?

Them "directing communications" to you does not show that they are pursuing anyone other than the registered keeper at this stage. Is there not a tear off slip on the back of the NtK for transferring liability to the driver?

There is no "debt collector" correspondence that you have shown us. Only PCMUK reminders. If there is any doubt, I suggest you email PCMUK and clarify the status of the PCN and who they are pursuing and in what capacity, driver, keeper or both. You need a definitive answer to that question.

WhoLetTheScamsOut

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Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2024, 10:41:15 pm »
Please have a read of PoFA 9(2)(e)(ii) which states as follows:

[The notice must] state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—

(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges; or

(ii)if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;

The NtK does not mention anything about passing the notice to the driver.

However, this is a moot point as the driver has now been identified and is liable. It would have been a valid point if your husband hadn't decided to throw you under the bus.

As you have now passed the appeals process, you need to be prepared to weather a storm of useless debt collector letters which are designed to get low hanging fruit on the gullible tree to capitulate and pay into the scam. You will need to protect your husband from these. Unless you receive a Letter of Claim (loC) or similar worded letter giving you 30 days to pay or face a claim, there is nothing you can do.

They may never bother to actually go that far. However, you are dealing with a very greedy scammer who is likely to try it on in the hope that you will give in and pay up rather than defend a claim.



This scammer took me to court last year for similar circumstances but in my case i was fully on the pavement. My solo winning point was that 9(2)(e)(ii) was not met and the judge struck out the case. Probably could’ve had it discontinued during the witness stage but unfortunately i missed that and had it sent very late (day before hearing but judge allowed it).

DWMB2

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Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2024, 10:43:48 pm »
This scammer took me to court last year for similar circumstances but in my case i was fully on the pavement. My solo winning point was that 9(2)(e)(ii) was not met and the judge struck out the case. Probably could’ve had it discontinued during the witness stage but unfortunately i missed that and had it sent very late (day before hearing but judge allowed it).
If you're able to share a (redacted) version of the defence and WS you submitted this might be of help to the OP

WhoLetTheScamsOut

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Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2024, 11:43:29 pm »
This scammer took me to court last year for similar circumstances but in my case i was fully on the pavement. My solo winning point was that 9(2)(e)(ii) was not met and the judge struck out the case. Probably could’ve had it discontinued during the witness stage but unfortunately i missed that and had it sent very late (day before hearing but judge allowed it).
If you're able to share a (redacted) version of the defence and WS you submitted this might be of help to the OP


I will have a look over the weekend what i can find from my case and share accordingly and i will also share the result posted from court
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