Author Topic: Civil Enforcement - Parking Ticket - Neath Port Talbot  (Read 214 times)

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Fairygoth666

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Civil Enforcement - Parking Ticket - Neath Port Talbot
« on: March 09, 2024, 10:06:06 pm »
Hi,

I am desperately seeking help to fight 2 parking tickets issued by Civil Enforcement. I have already appealed and lost 2 tickets from this location - I'll give you a brief background so that you fully understand the issue. Apologies in advance for the length of this, but I feel the full background is important.

02.09.24
My daughter started football training in the Academy of Sport in Llandarcy, Neath. On arrival for the first session it was dark but the driver noticed small signs with a phone number to pay for parking. The signs were incredibly hard to see as the phone number is very small and it was dark, however with some straining the number was recognised. The driver rang the number and registered the vehicle so that it would be quicker to pay next time. At the end of the call the driver typed in the car park number and attempted to pay - the auto response said 'there is nothing to pay'. The car remained in the car park for just over an hour - the session runs from 5:30pm to 6:30pm.

09.09.24
2nd football training session. Again, the driver attempted to pay for parking (just in case) but got the same message - 'there is nothing to pay'.

Week commencing 12.09.24 - parking ticket received for parking on 02.09.24. Appealed with proof of phone record showing that the driver tried to pay. Response: On this occasion, your appeal has been unsuccessful for the following reason:
Signs in the above car park clearly advise parking terms apply Friday 6pm - 12am, Saturday & Sunday
8am - midnight, permit holders at all other times and we have no record of the above vehicle being
authorised to park on the day.
The driver was unaware that payment was required from 6pm - remember the session runs from 5:30pm to 6:30pm.
PCN paid as driver had missed the signage, it was a fair cop.
Driver also realised there would be another PCN for 09.09.24 for the same reason.
The second PCN arrived week commencing 19.02.24 and was begrudgingly paid, taken as a fair cop.

16.09.24
3rd football session.
Driver parked just before 5:30pm and waited until 6pm - rang the number to pay but had a message saying the system was under maintenance and to find another way to pay. Driver spotted people queuing at a small paying point that had not been noticed before. Driver joined the queue and bought a ticket. Due to the queue it was issued at 6:04pm.

Week Commencing 26.02.24
PCN issued for event on 16.09.24.
PCN appealed with evidence of phone record showing attempt to phone and pay on 16.09.24, plus evidence of purchased parking ticket.
Response: On this occasion, your appeal has been unsuccessful for the following reason:
Signs in the above car park clearly advise payment for parking must be made within 30 minutes of
arrival and on this occasion you failed to do so.
I REQUIRE ADVICE ON THIS TICKET AND WISH TO APPEAL TO POPLA

23.09.24
4th football session.
Driver went to parking ticket point at 5:55pm in order to get a ticket but was unable to as the machine is switched off and automatically turns on at exactly 6pm. Driver waited for machine to turn on and bought a ticket.
PCN received for this event too which is going to be appealed. The appeal will no doubt be unsuccessful SO I REQUIRE ADICE ON THIS PCN AND AN APPEAL TO POPLA ALSO.

Important points:

- The car is parked from just before 5:30pm until just after 6:30pm

- There are small signs dotted about the carpark with a number to phone to pay - the phone number is very very small and hard to read - see here: https://imgur.com/a/un4Ch5E and here: https://imgur.com/a/V7Uj3i8 (number to ring is top right in the 'to pay' box).

- You cannot pay by phoning before 6pm as the message says 'there is nothing to pay'.

- You cannot pay at the parking point before 6pm as the machine is switched off.

- You cannot pay before 6pm in any way.

- The main signage (which was not seen until the 3rd visit) is contradictory - the large sign says 'Payment option is only available between 6pm and midnight on a Friday. The second, smaller sign right next to it says 'Payment must be made within 30 minutes of arriving on the premises' - see here: https://imgur.com/a/ogkehiO

- PCN for 16.02.24 here: https://imgur.com/a/7eT6xSO

- Proof of payment for 16.02.24 here: https://imgur.com/a/N13qU9H - this was included in the appeal.

- Proof of call trying to pay for parking on 16.02.24 here: https://imgur.com/a/4lxUdvY - this was included in the appeal.

What I need to know:
- Is this worth taking to POPLA? I believe it is.
- What should the driver write in the appeal?
- The PCN from 23.02.24 is due to be appealed - should the driver appeal and await an unsuccessful response and appeal to POPLA in the same way as the current ticket or should it be appealed in a different way that is more likely to be successful.

I hope that all of this is clear. Please ask any questions you need to. I have all the evidence and records for each ticket if you need more info.

Many, many thanks,

Fairygoth666
« Last Edit: March 09, 2024, 10:21:58 pm by Fairygoth666 »

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Nosy Parker

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Re: Civil Enforcement - Parking Ticket - Neath Port Talbot
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2024, 10:23:44 pm »
Please upload copies of the front and back of the PCN to an external hosting site like www.imgur.com and post the links here. Redact your name, address, vehicle number and any reference but leave all dates showing.

Fairygoth666

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Re: Civil Enforcement - Parking Ticket - Neath Port Talbot
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2024, 10:27:38 pm »
Front of PCN: https://imgur.com/a/7eT6xSO

Back of PCN: https://imgur.com/a/q3DhfNR

Fairygoth666

Fairygoth666

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Re: Civil Enforcement - Parking Ticket - Neath Port Talbot
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2024, 10:57:04 pm »
Interestingly the back of the notice says that if your appeal is unsuccessful they will give the unique reference number to appeal to POPLA. However if I check the status of my ticket here https://appeals.ce-service.co.uk/ there is an option to re-appeal.

Is this actually an option? If so, should I try that first?

Fairygoth666

b789

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Re: Civil Enforcement - Parking Ticket - Neath Port Talbot
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2024, 09:34:28 am »
Did you, at any stage, try Plan A? Have you tried contacting the landowner to see if they can get the PCN cancelled? Is the Academy the company that contracted the unregulated private parking company to operate the car park? If so, do they realise that sending their customers an invoice for 100 each time may not be conducive to good future business?

It's a pity you didn't come here the first time you received the PCNs. The signs and the conditions you have described would have been good points to appeal to POPLA. Unfortunately, by paying these scammers, you have been marked as a "mug" for future milking. When appealing to POPLA, mitigation is not considered at all. Only points of civil law and the BPA Code of Practice.

Can you take pictures of the entrance signs to the car park? The GSV pictures are 3-4 years old. Can you take a picture of the signs you showed under the same lighting conditions, without flash, as they appear to a driver?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2024, 09:49:00 am by b789 »

H C Andersen

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Re: Civil Enforcement - Parking Ticket - Neath Port Talbot
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2024, 10:22:05 am »
Would you correct your dates in post #1 pl.

The 'Important Notice' has been erected by 'Llandarcy Gym', there is no mention of Civil Enforcement Ltd'.

I suggest you go to the gym and find out what they know about the parking arrangements.

The CEL sign doesn't specify any times as far as we can see - why do you insist on posting signs which are practicably unreadable to us?? - so are there others.

Pl don't post photos only of signs which you think support your argument, we need to see everything which might bear upon this issue.

DWMB2

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Re: Civil Enforcement - Parking Ticket - Neath Port Talbot
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2024, 01:24:12 pm »
I've zoomed in on the CEL sign from the OP's previous upload. Payment at certain times, permit holders only all other times.

Leaving aside the large sign erected by the gym, the mention of the requirement to hold a permit is incredibly small and certainly not prominent (and anyway, potentially forbidding).


Fairygoth666

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Re: Civil Enforcement - Parking Ticket - Neath Port Talbot
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2024, 03:52:17 pm »
Thanks for the replies.

For some reason I'm not being given the option to modify my post - all dates should be in Feb 2024.

Yes I approached the land owner after the first PCN - they said there was nothing they can do and to take it up with civil enforcement.

There is no other signage in the carpark apart from the small signs on poles like these https://imgur.com/a/un4Ch5E and here: https://imgur.com/a/V7Uj3i8 which are identical and very difficult to read. There is no sign on entry to the car park.

I will take a drive up there and take a photo of the entrance and the sign in the dark. There is no lighting on any of the signage.

What are my next steps?

Is there a template that I can use to appeal to POPLA? My daughter did not attend football this week as the driver simply cannot afford to keep paying these ridiculous fines. :(

FGM666

H C Andersen

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Re: Civil Enforcement - Parking Ticket - Neath Port Talbot
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2024, 04:50:20 pm »
Yes I approached the land owner after the first PCN - they said there was nothing they can do and to take it up with civil enforcement.

Have you spoken to the gym, not to complain about your PCNs but to clarify how things work? Perhaps you're not using the paybyphone system properly, I don't know. But what you're saying is that, to take an example, a gym user who, say,  has a class from 5.30-6.30 on a Friday wouldn't be able to park in the car park because they couldn't pay until 30 minutes had expired and would have to interrupt the class to do so.

Fairygoth666

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Re: Civil Enforcement - Parking Ticket - Neath Port Talbot
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2024, 05:47:24 pm »
Yes, that's exactly what I am saying.

My daughters football training runs from 5:30 to 6:30pm so this is exactly the predicament here. However, as the driver arrived a few minutes before 5:30pm (in order to not be late) then the appeal has been rejected because they failed to pay for parking within 30 minutes of arrival. The machine does not switch on until 6pm and the phone line says 'nothing to pay' before 6pm, therefore making it impossible to pay within 30 minutes of arrival.

FGM666

DWMB2

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Re: Civil Enforcement - Parking Ticket - Neath Port Talbot
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2024, 06:05:30 pm »
My reading of the signage (ambiguous though it is, potentially in your favour), is that you are only entitled to park without a permit (e.g. by paying), after 6 pm.

If you park before then, you need a permit. What's not clear at this stage is how one obtains a permit, and it would be worth clarifying this with the gym owners.

There are potential arguments to be run about any 'Permit holder only' terms, but such arguments are only won in court, so worth you properly clarifying what the gym understands the set up to be.

Fairygoth666

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Re: Civil Enforcement - Parking Ticket - Neath Port Talbot
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2024, 07:00:18 pm »
My reading of the signage (ambiguous though it is, potentially in your favour), is that you are only entitled to park without a permit (e.g. by paying), after 6 pm.

If you park before then, you need a permit. What's not clear at this stage is how one obtains a permit, and it would be worth clarifying this with the gym owners.

Ahhhhh, I hadn't considered this.

I will find out if that is indeed the case and get back to you :)

Fairygoth666

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Re: Civil Enforcement - Parking Ticket - Neath Port Talbot
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2024, 09:38:06 pm »
Sorry for the delay in replying, it's been flat out at work but I know I need to get my letter into POPLA, so there are a few things I have to add at this point:

- I haven't managed to get back there in the dark as it's a bit of a trek and I've been exhausted with work
- I asked the lady on the desk at the gym what the rules were around parking - she said that indeed parking before 6pm requires a permit and there are limited numbers available, I could ask the football coach for one. I did this and was told that they did not issue permits and I had to pay via telephone or at the machine  >:(
- The photo of the entrance is here: https://imgur.com/a/DpUSxnI Apologies, it's a little blurred as my daughter took it.

In addition, the other ticket has now been appealed and rejected for the following reason - Signs in the above car park clearly advise parking terms apply between the hours of 6pm-12am on Fridays, Saturday & Sundays 8am - midnight, permit holders only at all other times and we have no record of the above vehicle being authorised to park on the day. The driver had again paid for parking and sent proof so this is because they parked there before 6pm.

So I have 2 that I would like to write to POPLA about, assuming that would be the right thing to do? Is it worth it? Is there a template? I think I only have a few days to get the first one in. Note - when you appeal the ticket with Civil Enforcement it asks who the driver is, so the driver has had to disclose this to them already. They could not just admit to being the keeper as the question reads 'Were you the driver?'. This question had to be answered to proceed to the page to lodge the appeal. Has the driver shot themselves in the foot?

As an aside, the driver took my daughter to football on Fri, dropped her off and parked up elsewhere. She returned to the carpark to pick her up and pay for parking to be safe. The machine was not working. The phone line was down for maintenance. Total panic!! The driver went into the gym and asked what to do. Apparently there is an app (park and pay) however after queuing for the ticket, getting her daughter, queuing at the gym 30 mins was almost up and by the time they had registered the app, set up payment etc another ticket would be on it's way. Driver told staff they weren't leaving until it was sorted due to 4 fines already. After some tense words the lady on the desk told the driver to type in her registration number into the tablet at the desk - did that and was instantly given confirmation of a permit for that day. Lady on the desk said 'don't tell anyone I let you do that'. Driver was fuming!! Are they colluding with the parking company? Are they somehow gaining from this. It's taken 6 visits and the driver has been sent around the houses every time and is still unable to get a permit, bar that single day one after raising her voice a little. Furious!!

Advice on next steps re POPLA would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

FGM
« Last Edit: March 23, 2024, 10:12:24 pm by Fairygoth666 »

Fairygoth666

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Re: Civil Enforcement - Parking Ticket - Neath Port Talbot
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2024, 09:19:43 pm »
Hi all,

I've just checked the date and I need to get my appeal into POPLA today!!!! I may already be too late due to the time.

Please can someone urgently send me a link to a template letter and an idea of what defense I am going for??

Panicking!!!

Modified to include the following update:

POPLA appeal has been submitted on the basis of inadequate signage at the site based upon the lack of signage at the entrance, the font size on all signs, the height of the smaller signs plus small font, sunset occurred at 17:31 on the date of contravention. Beavis, POFA and BPA quoted and everything adjusted to apply to the circumstances of this particular case.

I have no idea whether what I have written will be adequate so watch this space - I will update this thread when I have news.

How long does it usually take for POPLA to make a decision and inform the appellant? I have the other ticket to appeal in 7 days and if I haven't had a response from POPLA by that time I will not know whether my appeal will work next time. I would like to have more time to tailor my response to include the fact that I bought a ticket and was unable to get a permit if possible - however if this PCN gets overturned by POPLA then I will not need to take the extra time to add this detail.

FGM666
« Last Edit: March 29, 2024, 11:03:04 pm by Fairygoth666 »

b789

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Re: Civil Enforcement - Parking Ticket - Neath Port Talbot
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2024, 11:25:17 pm »
POPLA codes are valid for 33 days. They state 28 days but you can file an appeal up to date 33.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2024, 04:10:06 am by b789 »
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