Author Topic: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon  (Read 224 times)

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Keeper

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Hello everyone,

I've been slapped with a PCN (as the keeper) for parking without a permit on some private land (pdf attached)

Bit of context:

1. The driver went to a church hall as they often do for a local residents association meeting at about 8pm at night.
2. While in the meeting the issue of parking / traffic in the local area was discussed and it was mentioned that the church had applied parking conditions on their site due to parents at nearby schools taking all their spaces during pickup / drop-off times.
3. The driver left the meeting and upon leaving, now being aware, saw the signs (photo attached).
4. PCN was received and Plan A commenced. Local residents association were helpful, explained that the driver was not the only one caught out by the new rules and wrote to the Church. I also wrote to the church, asking if they would be able to ask CE to cancel the charge.
6. Church was not very helpful, responding directly to me that the only course of action available is to appeal directly to Creative Parking (aside: seems like a different company to Civil Enforcement?)

I now think I should make some sort of appeal to CE as directed on the notice. Something I noticed, if the appeal is unsuccessful, I lose the chance to pay the reduced rate. Is that normal?


https://imgur.com/wqLkhDk
https://imgur.com/LWCGksP
https://imgur.com/lImFq5j
« Last Edit: June 24, 2024, 10:23:41 am by Keeper »

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The Rookie

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Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2024, 10:20:05 am »
We need to see the PCN (all of it) please, just personal details redacted.

Creative and Civil are the same 'people' but different legal companies, so if the signs are in one name and the PCN or contract (with the Church) in another, they can't enforce it (but will continue blindly anyway).

Pretty shitty behaviour by people claiming to be religious!
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!

Keeper

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Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2024, 10:24:13 am »
We need to see the PCN (all of it) please, just personal details redacted.

Creative and Civil are the same 'people' but different legal companies, so if the signs are in one name and the PCN or contract (with the Church) in another, they can't enforce it (but will continue blindly anyway).

Pretty shitty behaviour by people claiming to be religious!

Thought I'd done it in original post but didn't enter correctly, done now, thanks for the heads up!

And yes, don't get me started!

b789

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Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2024, 02:15:28 pm »
The signs and the NtK (invoice) are in CE’s name.

If Creative Solutions is a separate registered company and the landowner contract is with them and not CE, then it will depend on how that contract is worded. You’re not going to get sight of that, if you’re lucky, until POPLA and even then they will try and get away with only a signed statement that the contract is valid.

It may have to go all the way to court before they are forced to reveal the contract with the landowner.

You may need to be more forceful with the church if they are the landowner. Remind them that they are jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agent and that should they take the matter to court, they can be expected to called as a witness and and be could named as a party to a Part 20 counterclaim.

The landowner should understand their liability and cannot simply fob you off back to their agents.
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Keeper

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Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2024, 11:46:10 am »
Thanks for this advice

Realistically, what grounds could I have for a part 20?
 
I have a feeling that the Church will just not be interested - do I have any course of action available with an appeal to CE?

Could I use the "Given that it's not paid for parking, the driver did not rob you of any income - parking is 'free' anyway"
Or the "I don't have to tell you who the driver is"

Failing these, would you suggest that I just pay it, or do something else?



The Rookie

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Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2024, 12:34:52 pm »
Could I use the
1/ "Given that it's not paid for parking, the driver did not rob you of any income - parking is 'free' anyway"
Or the
2/ "I don't have to tell you who the driver is"

3/ Failing these, would you suggest that I just pay it, or do something else?
Numbered for answering
1/ No, what matters is whether the charge is commercially justified (Ref the Supreme court ruling in Parking Eye v Beavis)
2/ That is correct, but then you may be liable as the Keeper if they have met the requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (schedule 4). I can't see your PCN through my co. firewall so can't tell you if they have or not.

3/ Lets get all the facts first, was the signage 'there to be seen' so the driver should have been aware of them, do they create a contract (detailed photo's needed).
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!

b789

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Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2024, 04:44:41 pm »
For now you need to get a generic appeal in so that you can get a POPLA code. You don't have much time left for the appeal.

A simple appeal along these lines will get your rejection and POPLA code:

Re PCN number:

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require an explanation of the allegation and your evidence. You must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date as well as your images of the vehicle.

If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner.

Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Keeper

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Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2024, 07:37:11 pm »
Thanks, have done this and will report back...

DWMB2

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Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2024, 08:25:17 pm »
The chances of them accepting the appeal are close to nil. As b789 noted, the main purpose is to get you a code with which you can then appeal to POPLA. With that in mind, there's little harm in starting to consider your draft now.

Keeper

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Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2024, 11:07:34 am »
aaaand we're already there!

Received attached, along with photos of signage (same as mine above plus this other one)



https://imgur.com/twkSJs8

https://imgur.com/PNJ6AzC

https://imgur.com/U8TApNw

b789

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Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2024, 01:37:36 pm »
You should, if possible, get some photos of the car park. They should be area pictures showing the layout and the signs. Whilst you won’t use close up photos of signs in your POPLA appeal except to perhaps show any inadequacies in them, it is useful to see where you were parked and exactly what signs were prominent or not.

You will need to point out in your POPLA appeal that CEL must prove that they have a valid contract between them and the landowner. A signed statement confirming that a valid contract exists is not sufficient evidence.

When you have provided some suitable photos to show the layout and general views of the car park and signs, I will be able to provide you with some suitable paragraphs for use in your POPLA appeal.

You have until Monday 29th July to submit your POPLA appeal. The rejection letter says 28 days but we know that POPLA appeal codes are valid for 33 days.
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Keeper

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Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2024, 10:35:32 pm »
I'm not having much joy with Plan A - landowner is known for being unhelpful

Photos of car park attached - I think I was parked 2 spaces to the right of the black SUV

If it helps, the signage changed at some point - looking at street view for the area, it's an entirely different company


https://imgur.com/Nycf0ka

https://imgur.com/W3S2bt6

https://imgur.com/BpF58eo





b789

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Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2024, 01:47:18 am »
OK, there are signs but they do not appear to adequately bring to the attention of the driver what the charge is for breaching any terms.

Do you have a close up of the terms sign so that it can be compared to the Beavis sign to show the failures? The only close up you’ve shown us is the entrance sign that refers to the other signs with the terms.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 01:48:53 am by b789 »
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

DWMB2

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Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2024, 09:05:31 am »
One thing that may not help is where the driver parked, seemingly directly below one of the signs.

b789

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Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2024, 09:47:07 am »
Whilst it is agreed that it appears that the driver parked almost in front of a sign and it must have been still light at the time, the argument can still centre on the fact that the signs are a block of text in a tiny font and the charge is not adequately brought to the attention of the driver.

We need to see a close up photo of the sign to determine for sure if there is any weight to that argument.
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.