Author Topic: London Borough of Harrow, 86 - Not Parked within Markings of Bay, Davy House Car Park  (Read 228 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

rum

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Whilst dropping off my child for an exam during the Easter hols in April, I used the Davy House Car Park (which is covered). I paid for the correct number of hours.

Due to my car's size and the parking sensors are a bit too sensitive, I left a bit of space between the driver side and a very large concrete pillar on the driver side. I had adjusted the car's position several times but it was too risky to get it closer. The car park was virtually empty at the time I parked, however all the bays have a pillar on one side of the other. Nonetheless, Harrow council slapped me with a PCN for not parking within a marked bay (contravention 86), even though I was only just slightly over the line.

Here's the Google Street View link: https://maps.app.goo.gl/pdvCS1f3RsRrfsS97 (there are no more pics of the inside of the car park I'm afraid).

I appealed the PCN (attached), on the basis that the bay has a large pillar on the driver's side (I reverse parked) and that this discriminates driver's of larger vehicles. Harrow Council rejected it within days; I attach their rejection letter.

I'm now at the 'Representations' stage, so the fine is now the full amount. I intend to make representations, but I am not entirely sure under what grounds. Can any of the experts advise? Thanks!




« Last Edit: June 12, 2024, 10:23:28 pm by cp8759 »

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter


rum

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Hmmm I've posted the files using imgur, but I can't see them. They're definitely in the post when I go to edit it...  :o  ???

EDIT: changed something, looks like they are visible now

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4876
  • Karma: +113/-4
    • View Profile
@rum well the only photo of signage is this one:



It doesn't prove the council's case, so don't mention it as you don't want to alert them to any deficiencies in their evidence.

Are you the registered keeper?

Also please show us a copy of your informal representation, in the meantime I'll get hold of the parking places oder.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Like Like x 1 View List

rum

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Yes I am the registered keeper/owner.

https://imgur.com/a/CoEfMkr

« Last Edit: June 16, 2024, 04:20:17 pm by cp8759 »

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4876
  • Karma: +113/-4
    • View Profile
@rum I'm not sure why you've posted a snipper of the NTO, we can't do anythign with snippets of documents.

Please post:

1) Your informal representations that you originally made against the PCN, and
2) All sides of all pages of the NTO, turned the right way round please.

Please see the guidance here on how to post images properly in your posts.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

rum

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
OK, in response to your first point, I donít have an exact copy of what was sent to them. But basically it went along the lines of size of vehicle was not easy to park in the space, especially given the proximity of the rather large (bigger than a foot wide) concrete pillar on the driverís side.

Pics of the full document are here:

https://imgur.com/a/9kwmQPP

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4876
  • Karma: +113/-4
    • View Profile
I hope you didn't mention anything about signage?

As the NTO (which appears compliant) was issued more than 14 days ago the discount won't be reoffered, so at this point you might as well take this all the way to the tribunal. In order to get there, I would suggest a very basic representation:

Dear London Borough of Harrow,

I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur.

Yours faithfully,


I would suggest you make this representation towards the end of the month to buy us a bit of time to get the car park order back, but please note that your deadline to make representations is midnight on 1 July and you must not miss this or else all is lost.

Representations should be made online, keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

rum

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
OK thanks. Do I use the same online form to make representations that I used for the informal challenge? This isnít clear on their site.

The entrance to the car park sign (see street view link in my first post) does state that you need to park within the lines, but the sign inside the car park does not state this (as per the CEOís photo).

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4876
  • Karma: +113/-4
    • View Profile
Yes unless instructed otherwise, it will be the same form on the council website as you used the last time round.

Just make sure to keep a screenshot of what you submit, and a screenshot of the confirmation page after you've submitted the representation.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

rum

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
OK, any harm in doing that now, or do you still need some more time?

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4876
  • Karma: +113/-4
    • View Profile
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

rum

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Iím sending the representation/challenge now.

Iím being asked ďselect the type of contravention you have received?Ē, but none of the options seem to be valid:

On street contraventions
Moving contraventions (CCTV)
Bus lane contraventions (CCTV)
Static contraventions caught by CCTV

If I select on street, it then asks if the notice was attached to the vehicle or received in the post. Should I choose this option and select attached to the vehicle?

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4876
  • Karma: +113/-4
    • View Profile
If I select on street, it then asks if the notice was attached to the vehicle or received in the post. Should I choose this option and select attached to the vehicle?
Well yes, we know the notice was attached to the vehicle as we can see a copy in post 1 above.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

rum

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
OK, challenge sent and five screenshots obtained

rum

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
What can I expect to come from the council now? Court summons?