Author Topic: Haringey Code 12r (parking without valid permit) in resident bay - 13 PCNs & appeals rejected  (Read 21824 times)

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@Enceladus

These are the 14 I have:

- ZN1212851A - 07/05/2024 09:33
- ZN12212900 - 16/05/2024 09:16
- ZN12266976 - 15/05/2024 16:25
- ZN1235398A - 17/05/2024 08:24
- ZN12354086 - 18/05/2024 08:38
- ZN12354326 - 22/05/2024 08:20
- ZN12354417 - 23/05/2024 08:28
- ZN12354552 - 24/05/2024 08:29
- ZN12354734 - 25/05/2024 08:10
- ZN12355191 - 20/05/2024 09:11
- ZN12411612 - 28/05/2024 08:06
- ZN12411827 - 29/05/2024 08:12
- ZN12413039 - 30/05/2024 10:04
- ZN12536367 - 31/05/2024 08:08 (impound PCN)

@Enceladus

These are the 14 I have:

- ZN1212851A - 07/05/2024 09:33
- ZN12212900 - 16/05/2024 09:16
- ZN12266976 - 15/05/2024 16:25
- ZN1235398A - 17/05/2024 08:24
- ZN12354086 - 18/05/2024 08:38
- ZN12354326 - 22/05/2024 08:20
- ZN12354417 - 23/05/2024 08:28
- ZN12354552 - 24/05/2024 08:29
- ZN12354734 - 25/05/2024 08:10
- ZN12355191 - 20/05/2024 09:11
- ZN12411612 - 28/05/2024 08:06
- ZN12411827 - 29/05/2024 08:12
- ZN12413039 - 30/05/2024 10:04
- ZN12536367 - 31/05/2024 08:08 (impound PCN)
Do you mean that have all 14 on-street PCN tickets?

What has happened to the 9 NTOs that show online as being issued 26th-29th July? They should all have been posted on the day of issue. You should have received them by now.

Are you the Registered Keeper of the car? Is the name and address on the V5c registration document 100% correct? Is your post being redirected / forwarded from somewhere else?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2024, 06:02:50 pm by Enceladus »

Sorry not sure I understood the question. These all refer to the PCNs that were put onto the car.

Where are you seeing this online? I haven't received any other NTOs.

Yes, I'm the registered keeper on the V5C. I've had to send this over previously for permit applications and my post isn't being redirected. It wouldn't make sense for them to send me 4 NTOs and none others if there was some issue on their system regarding this?

EDIT: I think I might have messed up here :(. I don't think I sent off the V5C. It's quite confusing as I assumed this V5C was enough and I did not need to do anything else. It's my first car and DVLA instructions aren't clear. Also, on registration of my other permits, I sent the V5C as evidence. Why would they approve this, if it was invalid?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2024, 04:01:46 pm by inst1nct103 »

Sorry not sure I understood the question. These all refer to the PCNs that were put onto the car.

Where are you seeing this online? I haven't received any other NTOs.

Yes, I'm the registered keeper on the V5C. I've had to send this over previously for permit applications and my post isn't being redirected. It wouldn't make sense for them to send me 4 NTOs and none others if there was some issue on their system regarding this?

EDIT: I think I might have messed up here :(. I don't think I sent off the V5C. It's quite confusing as I assumed this V5C was enough and I did not need to do anything else. It's my first car and DVLA instructions aren't clear. Also, on registration of my other permits, I sent the V5C as evidence. Why would they approve this, if it was invalid?
I asked whether or not you have possession of all of the 14 PCNs. I mean the notices that were put onto the windscreen in the yellow plastic envelopes? I know you know all of the PCN numbers but have you got the PCNs themselves? So far you've only shown us PCN #14, the one paid at the pound.

If you check your PCNs online on Haringey's website you can select the Key Events tab and can see there if and when a NTO was issued. This shows that the first 4 PCNs progressed to the NTO stage on the 24th July. And that 8 out of the remaining 9 progressed to NTO on the 26th July. And 1 PCN progressed to NTO on the 29th July.

The PCN paid at the pound, PCN #14 won't ever progress to NTO as it was paid. That has to be handled differently.

So you have 4 NTOs and 9 have gone missing. That's not really credible. In most cases this means that the RK details held by the DVLA are not correct. Either because of a change of address or sometimes typos in the details. The Council will request the RK details from the DVLA for the date of the contravention and will use that as the address to serve all of the statutory notices. Of course that might explain why 9 NTOs go missing but not why you got the first 4.

So back to basics. Find the V5c for the car. Is the RK's name and address correct and current? And was it correct through May, when the PCNs were issued? And are you the RK that's named or is it somebody else, a relative perhaps?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2024, 06:26:34 pm by Enceladus »

Re my previous post, that horse has bolted as the council's records show all NTOs now issued, the machine has ground away because it doesn't know anything better.

IMO, looking for your V5C is not your priority, this is to make reps and tell the council what has happened. What counts is the 28-day periods which attach to the NTOs you have received and the pound PCN. You are not obliged to go hunting your V5C because you've no reason to think there's a problem. Your role is passive, you only 'know' something might be amiss because you've been told. You have no reason to think that there's anything untoward with your V5C because you have received 4 NTOs correctly addressed(you will confirm), so what's the problem?

I just want you to send reps to the council, not worry about why something which you've been told has been sent to you hasn't arrived, this can be dealt with later and in its turn.

In short: shed light on the council's darkness ASP.


@Enceladus just want to thank you again for your patient and clarity, super helpful!

Oh I understand now. So I've checked and my sister was only given seven PCNs at the impound. I have them and they correspond to the following PCNS:

  • ZN12354326 - 22/05/2024 08:20
  • ZN12354417 - 23/05/2024 08:28
  • ZN12354552 - 24/05/2024 08:29
  • ZN12354734 - 25/05/2024 08:10
  • ZN12411612 - 28/05/2024 08:06
  • ZN12411827 - 29/05/2024 08:12
  • ZN12413039 - 30/05/2024 10:04


So there are 6 missing (going from 07/05-20/05). My guess is either there has been some tampering by the CEOs or they blew away during a rainy day. I'm not sure..

Okay, that's a real pain if those NTOs have progressed but I haven't got the letters. Initially I was planning to appeal the 4 that I had that enclose the forms in a single envelope along with my detailed appeal. I'm assuming that the remaining 9 will never come, in which case I will have to update my appeal to mention that although Haringey's website show they have progressed, I haven't received them.

I've located my V5C and attached the pictures below. The front page and section 3 (covered with the black boxes) show my correct and current address. I received this document ~May 2023, so it was correct through May 2024 and when the PCNs were issued. The RK is me. This document quite honestly is still confusing for me.




@H C Andersen

That makes sense, and especially given that some were sent and others weren't. I'll be sure to highlight it in the appeal as failure on their part (given the website clearly shows that the others have progressed to NTOs).

I agree! My plan is to send them tomorrow first class and that should be well within the 28 day return period, given the first one progressed on the 24th July.


You have some time available to get this right, bearing in mind that sooner rather than later is better. Please post up here the latest drafts of what you intend to say before you post anything to the Council. Also you should be able to submit the representations on-line, except maybe for PCN 14.

Get screen prints of the Key Events for each of the first 13 PCNs.

I'd be inclined to politely ask the Council in your reps why the Key Events for the 9 PCNs show that Notice To Owners have been issued but don't appear to have been posted? Mention that the NTOs should have been posted on the day of issue. Ask them to confirm the address used on the missing NTOs? And make sure to list the 9 NTOs.

It might annoy them, but clearly something is wrong. Whilst correctly addressed letters might go missing, really they should all have arrived before now, Suggests that that they haven't actually been printed and posted.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2024, 05:24:06 am by Enceladus »

@Enceladus where is the option to do this online? I could not see it.

https://new.haringey.gov.uk/parking/pcns-parking-traffic/challenge-make-representations-a-parking-pcn

Scroll down the page a bit and find the green "Make an online challenge or representation >" button. That gets you to the Parking ticket viewer. Put in the details of one of your PCNS and press Search. Now you can see the PCN details. To the left of the Key Events tab near the top is the Make a Representation tab. Probably won't work for PCN 14 but give it a try as well.

And as I mentioned earlier, you've got plenty of time so post up your latest drafts for scrutiny before submitting representations.

@Enceladus thank you for that! I thought there might be a separate link, but really it was just on the same website which is ideal. In that case, I won't send the representation by post and will do so online.

Here is what I have so far:



I am making a representation against the Notice to Owner (NTO) issued to me. This will apply to 13 of the 14 Penalty Charge Notices (PCNs - Appendix 1.1) related to this case. For the 14th PCN (ZN12536367), I wish to make a representation, but was not informed how to do so.

To date, I've received 4 NTOs by post, with 9 pending. On the Haringey parking website, under Key Events (screenshots in Appendix 4.1), it shows that NTOs have been issued for 9 PCNs but don't appear to have been posted. NTOs should be posted on the day of issue. Could you please confirm the address used for these missing NTOs? The 9 PCNs in question are: ZN12354086, ZN12354326, ZN12354417, ZN12354552, ZN12354734, ZN12355191, ZN12411612, ZN12411827, ZN12413039, ZN12536367.

I will provide context before presenting my three-part representation, which I'll explain in detail in separate sections.

Summary

I've held a resident's permit since October 2023. From April 12th to July 12th, 2024, I was abroad for work. My permit expired on April 25th, and I don't recall receiving a renewal notification. Consequently, my car remained parked and stationary in the same place without a valid permit for 61 days.

During this period, 14 PCNs were issued before the council decided to remove my car on May 31st. On June 1st, my sister and a family friend recovered the vehicle on my behalf, paying £265 (£65 PCN fee, £200 removal charge).

I've received 4 NTOs and expect 9 more. The council's potential £1690 demand for late permit renewal is excessive, especially considering my five-year residency and consistent permit history.

My appeal consists of three parts:

  • The council's failure to remove the vehicle earlier.
  • Absence of permit renewal reminders or attempts to contact me.
  • Procedural failures during vehicle impound and release.

Failure to remove the vehicle earlier

My car remained stationary throughout the period these PCNs were issued. Tickets were issued almost daily from 07/05/2024 to 30/05/2024 (Appendix 1.1), often just minutes after 24 hours had passed. For instance, PCNs were issued at 08:20 on 22/05, 08:28 on 24/05, and 08:10 on 25/05.

All PCNs except one (dated 29/05) were for contravention code 12(i) at the same location on Cornwall Road. This pattern shows the contraventions were essentially identical, making the number of PCNs excessive and punitive rather than corrective.

Ann Cunningham, Head of Highways and Parking, stated in response to my complaint made to Haringey Council (Appendix 2.1): 'Normally after 3 PCNs the vehicle is flagged for removal... I can see from the PCN issued on 30th May that there were 5 PCNs attached to the vehicle and agree that the vehicle should have been removed sooner.’

A single, continuous contravention occurred as the vehicle remained stationary. No law entitles authorities to issue PCNs every 24 hours for the same offence. For continuous contraventions, authorities should use other powers, like vehicle removal. The Council's failure to remove the vehicle promptly should not result in my liability for multiple penalties. This approach is disproportionate and unfair.

The admission by Ann Cunningham, along with the 14 PCNs issued before removal, highlights the council's failure to follow their procedures, resulting in an unjustified number of PCNs for a single, ongoing contravention.

Absence of permit renewal reminders or attempts to contact me

As a five-year resident with a consistent permit history, I've held three consecutive permits with Haringey Council:

  • May 2022 (1 Year)
  • May 2023 (6 Months)
  • October 2023 (6 Months)

My prompt renewals upon receiving past communications demonstrate my reliability.

Haringey Council states: "You'll get an email 5 weeks before your permit ends asking you to renew your permit." However:

  • I did not receive this reminder email and cannot locate it in my records.
  • No follow-up emails, text messages, or letters were sent.
  • No other attempts to contact me were made.

This lack of communication contrasts with other councils' practices, such as Hackney, which sends multiple reminders. Haringey's single email attempt is insufficient to inform residents of expiring permits, especially given my history of prompt renewals upon notification.

Procedural failures during vehicle impound and release

My sister and a family friend recovered the vehicle on my behalf, paying the removal PCN and release fee. The impound staff provided only the PCN receipt (Appendix 3.1) and a vehicle removal receipt (Appendix 3.2), with no information about my rights to appeal or make representations. Additionally, no documentation about how to make representations was provided. I remained unaware of these rights until I sought legal advice.

This was a clear breach of the 'Statutory guidance for local authorities in England on civil enforcement of parking contraventions'.

OP, IMO far too in-your-face for the first PCN.

IMO, without sight of the traffic order the only possible grounds here are:

'Penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case',

When making reps to the council you are asking them to accept their share of responsibility, notwithstanding the wording of the Ts and Cs, and in respect of this PCN to exercise discretion. I'd save the legal arguments regarding custom and practice until adjudication - if it gets this far. 

Try a little tenderness...butter them up with how useful you have found their reminders etc. etc.



 

@H C Andersen

Took a while but I've toned it down a lot more:



Dear Haringey Council,

I'm writing to make a representation about the Notice to Owner (NTO) that was issued to me. This representation covers 13 of the 14 Penalty Charge Notices (PCNs) related to this case, which are listed in Appendix 1.1. The PCNs in question are: ZN12128S1A, ZN12212900, ZN12266976, ZN12353988, ZN12354086, ZN12354326, ZN12354417, ZN12354552, ZN12354734, ZN12355191, ZN12411612, ZN12411827 and ZN12413039.

As for the 14th PCN (ZN12536367), I'd also like to make a representation, but I wasn't told how to do so.

I've been a resident of Haringey for over 5 years now, and I've always made sure to keep my parking permit up to date. The council's reminder emails have really helped me renew my permit on time in the past.

However, due to an unfortunate situation, I believe the penalties in this case have been excessive. Before explaining the details, I hope the council will consider being flexible and taking my history as a responsible resident into account.

Summary of Circumstances

As a Haringey resident for over five years now, I've held a parking permit since October 2023. From April 12th to July 12th, 2024, I was away for work. Unfortunately during that time, my permit expired on April 25th and I don't recall getting the renewal reminder that the council usually sends.

Because of this, my car was without a valid permit for 61 days. This resulted in a continuous stream of 14 parking tickets being issued while I was away, without me being aware of this in any way.

The council eventually removed my car on May 31st. On June 1st, my sister and a family friend recovered the car for me, paying £265 (£65 for a ticket and £200 for the removal).

So far I have received 4 NTOs, but according to the Haringey parking website, 9 more NTOs have been issued but have not yet arrived in the post. This seems unusual as NTOs are typically posted on the day they're issued?

I understand my car was without a permit, but there isn’t much more I could have done here. I feel that potentially having to pay £1690 for being late on my permit renewal is too much, especially since I've demonstrated my reliability as a permanent resident with a good permit history.

I'm asking the council to please consider:
  • Why it took so long to remove the car
  • Why I didn't get the usual reminders about renewing my permit
  • Some issues with how the car was impounded and released

Why it took so long to remove the car

My car remained in the same place throughout the period these PCNs were issued. Tickets were issued almost daily from 07/05/2024 to 30/05/2024 (Appendix 1.1), often just minutes after 24 hours had passed. For instance, PCNs were issued at 08:20 on 22/05, 08:28 on 24/05, and 08:10 on 25/05.

All PCNs except one (dated 29/05) were for contravention code 12(i) at the same location on Cornwall Road. While I understand the importance of parking enforcement, I believe this pattern of issuance and the excessive number of tickets (which essentially refer to the same issue) are unfair.

Upon returning to the country, I emailed __, Head of Highways and Parking, about this situation (Appendix 2.1). She responded:

"Normally after 3 PCNs the vehicle is flagged for removal... I can see from the PCN issued on 30th May that there were 5 PCNs attached to the vehicle and agree that the vehicle should have been removed sooner."

Given that my car was stationary in the same place during this entire period, I hope the council will reconsider whether issuing so many tickets for the same ongoing issue was the most appropriate approach. I would have expected the council to:

  • Use its power to remove the vehicle more quickly, or
  • In case of no available space at the impound, communicate with the CEOs to exercise discretion in not issuing more tickets for the same contravention, given these unique circumstances.

The excessive number of tickets issued before the car's removal seems unfair, particularly given __ acknowledgment that it should have been removed sooner. I'm willing to provide any additional information that might assist the council in reviewing this aspect of my case. My hope is that we can reach a fair resolution that takes into account these unique circumstances.

Why I didn't get the usual reminders about renewing my permit

As a five-year resident with a consistent permit history, I've held three consecutive permits with Haringey Council since purchasing my car:

  • May 2022 (1 Year)
  • May 2023 (6 Months)
  • October 2023 (6 Months)

As you can see from these dates, I've been very reliable and consistent in renewing my permit as soon as I receive the reminder.

However, in this instance, I did not receive the reminder nor am I able to locate it. I also received no other follow-up emails, text messages, or letters.

I understand the council's limited resources, but I believe more could have been done to reach or communicate with me. I've learned that Hackney Council sends multiple reminders for permit renewals to their residents. I would hope Haringey Council could implement similar measures to mitigate the risk of a single communication not being received.

Some issues with how the car was impounded and released

I asked my sister, who is also a resident of Haringey Council, to periodically check on my car every month to ensure the battery does not zero. However, having three kids meant that she was unable to check on the car more frequently. After dropping off her kids to a weekend club on a Saturday, she was able to go and visit my car.

On arrival, she called me instantly, explaining that my car was not there. She was told by a nearby neighbour that it had been taken away. She went out of her way to find immediate childcare, as she spent the rest of the day on the phone with me trying to gather all the documents in order to get the car back from the impound. This was very stressful for her and myself.

Eventually my sister and a family friend went to the impound to recover the vehicle on my behalf, paying the removal PCN (£65) and release fee (£200). The impound staff provided only two documents: the PCN receipt (Appendix 3.1) and a vehicle removal receipt (Appendix 3.2). They gave no information about my rights to appeal or make representations against this 14th (ZN12536367) PCN, nor any additional documentation.

This has left me in a difficult situation as I was unaware of my rights, or how I could go about appealing this. Additionally, it's been difficult to get in touch with the council about this - I sent them an email but haven't heard anything back yet.

Closing request

Given my circumstances of being abroad, but also being a permanent resident who has demonstrated a reliable record of holding consistent permits and renewing them promptly, I hope the council will consider this representation with fairness and capacity for discretion.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2024, 10:07:10 pm by inst1nct103 »
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Now we know you are able to make reps online (remember to use a pdf attachment to preserve formatting) and that you have not received some of the PCNs/NtOs I am going to suggest you modify your opening as below.

You now know that the Council have issued the missing items, even if they have not reached you, so you can make reps against the relevant NtO. If the NtO and/or the PCN is missing, say in your reps.

You can use the same reps for each NtO, modifying the opening paragraphs as appropriate.

Wait for others to comment on my suggested opening and on the remainder of your latest draft.

--------------------------------------

Notice to Owner for PCN number (insert number)

I am making representation against the above NtO issued on (Date). For the reasons outlined below, I wish this representation to be considered together with those against the NtOs for the following PCNs (insert list).

(Insert as appropriate: I should point out that this PCN/this NtO was/were not received by me -see below.)

--------------------------

You don't begin 'Dear Haringey Council'! :)

You do need to make reps for each NtO.

It might be easier to put my suggested opening (which is unique to each NtO and changing 'below' to 'attached') in the representation box or whatever Haringey provide and finish with see attached pdf for the formal representations.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2024, 08:56:30 am by John U.K. »

@John U.K. - sounds good and good shout on the PDF too.

I'll wait for any other comments but I think the bulk of this looks good now (after your suggested edits).