Author Topic: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park  (Read 133 times)

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elucidate

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I had planned to take my family out (on Tuesday 01/04/2025) to Nando's in Finsbury Park, and we thought it would be nice to take our little one to the park itself before going to the restaurant.

Before setting off, I searched on GSV for where I should park the car. I chose not to park on Oxford Road where my chosen entrance to the park is, because, at the time in question, parking is strictly for residents' permit holders only on that road. So I decided to park on Upper Tollington Park which is partway between the park's entrance at the end of Oxford Road, and carried my little one from there to the park, and from the park to the restaurant, and back to the car again.

The reason for choosing Upper Tollington Park was that the bay I parked in allows for non-residents to park if they have a pay & display ticket. As I got out of the car, I checked the sign and I misread the sign as only being required to pay if parking between 8:30am and 6:30pm. In actual fact it said between 8:30am and 8:30pm. I also noticed that the restrictions only applies on match and event days, but I thought that was irrelevant to me because it was already past 6:30pm.

After visiting the park we walked past the car at 7:30pm and there was no PCN. As we continued walking towards the restaurant we saw a CEO issuing a PCN to another car further southwest on the same street, about 30 metres away from my car, on the same side of the road. I wondered if I was wrong to park too, but noticed that this particular car was in a separate bay which is strictly for business permit holders till 8:30pm. So I thought to myself I don't need to worry, because this driver was in the wrong and I was in the right. Little did I know that that same CEO was about to head to my car and give me the same treatment.

It was only when I got back to the car at 8:30pm that I saw the PCN and I checked the restrictions sign, and I realised it said 8:30am-8:30pm, not 8:30am-6:30pm.

In the PCN evidence I notice that the CEO's image of the restrictions is very low resolution. I don't suppose this would be of any help to me in my case?

Please note that the sign shown on GSV is outdated. This is a link to the exact location I was parked.

Today is the last day to post a challenge without losing the discounted rate, so any response I could get asap from anyone would be greatly appreciated. I realise I should have come here sooner but I just could not find the time.

Link to PCN and CEO evidence - use Incognito to avoid needing to sign in to view.

@cp8759

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Southpaw82

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And this is in the criminal section because…?
I am not qualified to give legal advice in the UK. While I will do my best to help you, you should not rely on my advice as if it was given by a lawyer qualified in the UK.

elucidate

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And this is in the criminal section because…?

I apologise.

cp8759

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@elucidate this sign https://maps.app.goo.gl/SzbCiTDLT4znNFkF9 looks like it says it's a permit holders' bay from 5 pm to 6:30 pm, are you saying the sign has now changed? The photos on the council website are too blurred to make out the times.

This sign for the same bay https://maps.app.goo.gl/td9wzMuSrAhL23xk8 is very clear.

It looks to me like either the restrictions have changed very recently, or the CEO just made a mistake.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

stamfordman

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I think Haringey flips the signs on match days - you can see the hinge. On 1 April Arsenal were playing at home.

The blurred pic won't impress an adjudicator. It would be useful to see what it says as I wonder if the P&D times do not coincide with permit parking.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2025, 11:00:24 pm by stamfordman »

elucidate

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@cp8759 @stamfordman

You will need to disregard any sign you see on GSV because it is now completely different. Unfortunately I did not take my own picture, but I do recognise the CEO sign as the correct sign.

Having another look at it, from what I can see non-residents can P&D from 10am till 5pm. Whereas resident permit holders can park from 8:30am till (what I thought said 6:30pm but later I realised was) 8:30pm.

So I definitely could not have done a valid P&D at the time. I suppose I was so hung up on being certain about 6:30pm being the end of the restricted time, I didn't properly acknowledge anything else.

cp8759

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Can you get us a photo of the new sign?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Incandescent

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The sign is indeed flippable, here it is 'unflipped' : -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/QZCdQwjwruN25Ndf8

However, I think the OP has misread the sign more than he thinks. The event days, ('flipped') sign, albeit blurred, shows that public pay-by-phone parking is only permitted 10am to 5pm (I think, it may be 6 pm). But I suspect the time period for payment parking is the same as on other, non-event days. It's certainly not a sign to be read when one is in a hurry !
« Last Edit: April 14, 2025, 11:58:31 pm by Incandescent »

stamfordman

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The next match at the Emirates is this Saturday - women's champions league game. That is the earliest we can check the sign. 

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cp8759

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The obvious question is, if the only contemporaneous image is blurred, how can the council prove what sign was on display at the material time? I somehow doubt they take a photo of each and every sign ahead of each event day.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

elucidate

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I've only now finally understood what you mean by a flipped sign on a hinge. I didn't know such a thing existed.
The sign hasn't changed at all then.

I suppose what happened with me was:
1) I looked at GSV before I left home, thinking I can park there safely after 6:30pm
2) I looked at the sign once I parked, but "confirmation bias" kicked in making me misread 8:30 for 6:30

I guess I'll just have to be contrite and see how it goes?

cp8759

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I guess I'll just have to be contrite and see how it goes?
No, stamfordman has indicated the signs can be checked on Saturday so let's wait and see what the signs show on an event day.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

stamfordman

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In some ways this is a better way of handling event days as it doesn't rely on zone entry signs with event days, parking signs with separate event days times (and best practice, also small plates with an event day phone hotline).

In others it's worse as a diligent motorist planning ahead can fall into a false sense of security and the sign can be more complicated.

elucidate

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I guess I'll just have to be contrite and see how it goes?
No, stamfordman has indicated the signs can be checked on Saturday so let's wait and see what the signs show on an event day.

On the event day in question, the headline time at the top definitely did say restrictions apply till 8:30pm.

I have appealed citing the fact that I checked the sign both before and after arriving at the location and, from both those readings, I understood that I can park after 6:30pm, and I can't see anything on the sign to show that I have breached any rule.

cp8759

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I have appealed citing the fact that I checked the sign both before and after arriving at the location and, from both those readings, I understood that I can park after 6:30pm, and I can't see anything on the sign to show that I have breached any rule.
No, you've made an informal representation, you're a long way from making any appeal.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order