Author Topic: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park  (Read 133 times)

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H C Andersen

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OP, I think confirmation bias is kicking-in again!

Can we agree what the sign actually says and how it's formatted first pl.

It comprises 3 panels.

Top panel

'P'  'Match and event days'.

Middle panel

'Mon-Sat 8.30am-8.30pm'
Resident permit holders FFC

         or

10am - ?pm

Pay at machine
 
Display ticket

        or
Pay by phone

Max stay 2 hours

No return within 2 hours

Bottom panel

Sundays and public holidays

Noon-4.30pm

Resident permit holders only FFC

Is this correct?





elucidate

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Good evening,

The rejection letter has come in: https://1drv.ms/b/c/f11da62e0ed95d12/EZy--ppPRkZEoU69i-9UMOQBmxUc5-Dp_-neSq9Y81FbYg?e=hE824h

That's the direct link. Again, please use Incognito to avoid the need to sign-in.
Also added to the folder.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2025, 06:03:49 pm by elucidate »

H C Andersen

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..and the sign says verbatim?

It's important, so it's worth spending time(3 minutes?).

cp8759

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It's hard to make out but it does say till 8:30 pm:



Might be one for the strategy of last resort.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

H C Andersen

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I'm loath to act before the OP has bothered to answer.

But if pushed...

When are 'Match and Event days'?

A parking sign is formatted as follows:

Top, upper or only panel: The restriction(in this case parking, but it could be loading or similar) and its scope, in this case the 'permitted parking expression' of 'Match and Event days'.

But they're not defined. Not every Mon, Tues, Wed, Thurs, Fri, Sat or Sun is a 'match or event day'.

So, WTF does the top panel mean in isolation?

IMO, nothing.

The sign is meaningless as it stands.

When are the 'Match and event days'?

Or is a motorist supposed to guess that as the top panel is exposed then it's a 'Match or event day'?

Good luck to the council succeeding on this at adjudication. 


cp8759

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Each panel is to be read in isolation, and I don't think it's arguable that the sign is not capable of being understood.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

elucidate

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I'm loath to act before the OP has bothered to answer.

At the best of times it's a one-hour round trip for me to go to the sign and come home again, and things are slightly more complicated what with me needing to go on a match or event day. I'm not saying I refuse to do it but there's obviously nothing I can do until I get the opportunity.


cp8759

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@elucidate my understanding is that @stamfordman isn't a million miles away and if you ask nicely he might be able to go and get a photo of the sign in the next few days.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

H C Andersen

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How can and why should the top panel be construed as having effect on the day in question when the use of the same permitted parking expression in the middle or lowest panel does not.

As I posted, IMO we're in danger of reading what we want to see.

OP, by way of example see diagram 13.48 on page 170 of the Traffic Signs Manual and Schedule 18 of the Traffic Signs etc. Regs:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782724/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/18/made


IMO, the permitted parking expression is meaningless on its own, it must be brought into effect by other sign(s) stating that today is a 'match etc. day'.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 01:32:54 pm by H C Andersen »

cp8759

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How can why should the top panel be construed as having effect on the day in question when the use of the same permitted parking expression in the middle or lowest panel does not.
Even if you ignore the top panel, the lower panels are not unclear or ambiguous and in any event there's substantial compliance. Elucidate's case isn't that the sign was confusing or unclear, but simply that he misread the end time of the restrictions.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Grant Urismo

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The Council must communicate a restriction in a way that a diligent motorist has a fighting chance of understanding. The Council must do this with compliant signage, it cannot invent a secret code based on the presence of hinges in signs and expect this to be understood.

I can't see why the bottom panel would be of any relevance, as the Tuesday in question was neither a Sunday nor a Bank Holiday.

The top panel refers to "match and event days", and I'm in agreement with HCA that it's meaningless. How is a motorist supposed to determine if there is both a "match" and an "event" on any given day (the Council may well have intended 'match or event', but they wrote "match and event", so hold them to it)?

I propose a variant on the strategy of last resort, a highly pedantic appeal that demands the council provide evidence all sorts of things that they won't bother doing, with a note that they will be held to strict proof of them all at the tribunal stage.
Admit nothing, use their bad  photo against them: I can't read the restriction in your photo, what does it say (in full, all sides)? is it variable? what does the other side say? What proof do you have of the state of the sign when I parked? Do you only flip on match days? At midnight exactly? What about event days? What's your proof that it was a match day? How was I supposed to know that? What's your definition of an match day? How was I supposed to know that? What's your proof that your definition of what  match day is was available to me at the time I parked? etc. etc.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 01:22:51 pm by Grant Urismo »

cp8759

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Aside from the fact that it's out of focus, can someone please explain to me what is unclear or ambiguous about the middle panel?



Because that's the only one that is relevant, and when an adjudicator asks what's wrong with it I don't think it's going to matter what the other panels say.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Incandescent

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+1

Also I don't think the P&D times differ between event and non-event days. The sign has always seemed clear enough to me, but we do see rather a lot of cases where OPs just haven't read the full sign, usually because they're in a hurry. Another recent case saw the OP totally ignore the yellow background "No Waiting" sign at the top of the pole which had the times parking was barred.

Act in haste, repent at leisure !