Author Topic: Enfield Council PCN during an event day restriction  (Read 584 times)

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confused-z

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Enfield Council PCN during an event day restriction
« on: January 13, 2024, 11:31:42 am »
Dear Forum,

A driver regularly attends the Edmonton Mosque on Friday's for the Muslim Friday Prayers. For other Muslim Prayers, the driver usually attends the local Mosque so only attends the Edmonton Mosque for the larger prayer events. Around the Edmonton Mosque, the roads have a parking restriction only on event days as the area is near the Tottenham Football Stadium where the event days are when there are football matches or other events (like NFL or music concerts) held in this stadium. During an event day, the parking restrictions are from 12pm till 9pm.

Usually there is no event days on a Friday, so when the driver attends the Edmonton Mosque, they usually park in the restricted area without any worry. There are no signs around the area to indicate when an event day is occurring so the driver must take their own initiative to go on the internet to check if there is an event at the stadium. In contrast to the roads near the Arsenal Stadium which also have similar parking restrictions, when there is an event at the Arsenal Stadium, there is a sign near the parking restriction sign to say that 'Today is an event day' so drivers don't need to figure out by themselves if the restrictions are being enforced on that day or not.

On the 5th Jan 2024, a driver parked on Raynham Avenue, N18, at 1pm to attend the Edmonton Mosque for the Friday prayers. The driver was unaware that there was a football match due at Tottenham Stadium later that evening (at 8pm, so 7 hours later). When the driver returned from the Friday Prayers the driver found a PCN on the windshield of the vehicle. Is there any chance of successfully appealing this PCN from the information provided thus far?

The PCN is as follows:
<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/vPKX3PU" data-context="false" ><a href="//imgur.com/a/vPKX3PU">Enfield PCN Front</a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

From Google Maps, here is a street view with the parking restriction sign.
<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/zNE5PbD" data-context="false" ><a href="//imgur.com/a/zNE5PbD"></a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

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confused-z

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Re: Enfield Council PCN during an event day restriction
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2024, 11:36:39 am »
Not sure if the images are coming through, but here is a link to the images.

Parking Restriction signs:
https://imgur.com/a/zNE5PbD

PCN:
https://imgur.com/a/vPKX3PU

Incandescent

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Re: Enfield Council PCN during an event day restriction
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2024, 07:39:06 pm »
Not sure if the images are coming through, but here is a link to the images.

Parking Restriction signs:
https://imgur.com/a/zNE5PbD

PCN:
https://imgur.com/a/vPKX3PU
Yes, but the next event day is supposed to be displayed on the entry to th e zone where event day restrictions are imposed. So you need to find out where the zone boundaries are, and get a photo of the sign. They have a legal duty to display the event days on the zone entry signs. They cannot say "it's all on our website". If that is what they are saying you should take them to London Tribunals where you will win.

Hippocrates

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Re: Enfield Council PCN during an event day restriction
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2024, 07:55:10 pm »
As per Mr Mustard's knowledge and experience, the PCN contains a fatal procedural impropriety.  2230448785


The PCN itself contains a procedural error that invalidates it. Schedule 2 paragraph 2 states
(d)that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred,

However, the PCN I received states that payment is due within 28 days from the date of service, not the date of the alleged contravention. This discrepancy constitutes a procedural impropriety that renders the PCN invalid.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2

« Last Edit: January 13, 2024, 07:59:11 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

BigBazz45

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Re: Enfield Council PCN during an event day restriction
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2024, 01:52:31 am »
Yes, but the next event day is supposed to be displayed on the entry to th e zone where event day restrictions are imposed. So you need to find out where the zone boundaries are, and get a photo of the sign. They have a legal duty to display the event days on the zone entry signs. They cannot say "it's all on our website". If that is what they are saying you should take them to London Tribunals where you will win.
We don't know which direction the OP approached Raynham Avenue from, but GSV shows zone entry signs on both sides of Fore Street at its junction with the A406, complete with "Next event day" plate: https://maps.app.goo.gl/skRRtk2zSmL1EFmV8

Approaching from the Tottenham direction, there are signs on both sides of the road at the boundary with LB of Haringey:

And approaching from the Westbound North Circular Road and using a series of back streets: [URL=https://maps.app.goo.gl/WZTxkLgVFxe5JUKMA]https://maps.app.goo.gl/WZTxkLgVFxe5JUKMA


I'm only aware of one occasion where they forgot to update a couple of the signs, resulting in me getting a PCN. Fortunately they cancelled at the informal reps stage upon being presented with the evidence.

Hippocrates

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Re: Enfield Council PCN during an event day restriction
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2024, 01:18:38 pm »
OP: do you realise the importance of the information I provided re the PCN?
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

confused-z

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Re: Enfield Council PCN during an event day restriction
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2024, 11:00:50 am »
Yes, but the next event day is supposed to be displayed on the entry to th e zone where event day restrictions are imposed. So you need to find out where the zone boundaries are, and get a photo of the sign. They have a legal duty to display the event days on the zone entry signs. They cannot say "it's all on our website". If that is what they are saying you should take them to London Tribunals where you will win.
We don't know which direction the OP approached Raynham Avenue from, but GSV shows zone entry signs on both sides of Fore Street at its junction with the A406, complete with "Next event day" plate: https://maps.app.goo.gl/skRRtk2zSmL1EFmV8

Approaching from the Tottenham direction, there are signs on both sides of the road at the boundary with LB of Haringey:

And approaching from the Westbound North Circular Road and using a series of back streets: [url=https://maps.app.goo.gl/WZTxkLgVFxe5JUKMA]https://maps.app.goo.gl/WZTxkLgVFxe5JUKMA


I'm only aware of one occasion where they forgot to update a couple of the signs, resulting in me getting a PCN. Fortunately they cancelled at the informal reps stage upon being presented with the evidence.

So the driver went around the back from Tesco Lea Valley to Raynham Avenue. The exact path is as follows:


https://imgur.com/a/EKQNf0O

The event day restriction zones starts from when you leave Leeside Road at the roundabout and go to any of the 3 exit roads, such as Dysons Road which the driver did. Looking at Google Maps Street View, there does not seem to be any signs mentioning when the next event day is at this roundabout junction so is it worth driving down there again to get some pictures to see what is what in terms of signs that should be there?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2024, 11:02:45 am by confused-z »

confused-z

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Re: Enfield Council PCN during an event day restriction
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2024, 11:19:57 am »
As per Mr Mustard's knowledge and experience, the PCN contains a fatal procedural impropriety.  2230448785


The PCN itself contains a procedural error that invalidates it. Schedule 2 paragraph 2 states
(d)that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred,

However, the PCN I received states that payment is due within 28 days from the date of service, not the date of the alleged contravention. This discrepancy constitutes a procedural impropriety that renders the PCN invalid.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2

Sorry for my stupidity but I didn't understand this response fully. On the PCN that the driver received, the wording seems to match like for like to Schedule 2 of the legislation that was provided so I can't see the error that makes this PCN invalid. Am I not seeing this correctly? Sorry again if I'm being thick.

confused-z

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Re: Enfield Council PCN during an event day restriction
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2024, 11:22:56 am »
For ease, here is the PCN again in the correct format for the forum.




confused-z

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Re: Enfield Council PCN during an event day restriction
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2024, 12:45:19 pm »
Sorry if I sound like I'm being pushy, but I'm just conscious that the 14 day timeframe to pay or appeal whilst keeping the 50% discounted fee is due by tomorrow and I'm not clear on if there is any grounds to appeal for this particular PCN. Please let me know what I can do as the PCN seems correctly worded but I don't recall seeing any sign's noting a event day when I entered the area with the event day parking restrictions.

Incandescent

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Re: Enfield Council PCN during an event day restriction
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2024, 01:20:40 pm »
Quote
but I don't recall seeing any sign's noting a event day when I entered the area with the event day parking restrictions.
Here is the sign as per GSV March 2022
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZgQptLQdYrT53TeY9
So unless there was no even date on that sign, you look bang-to-rights, I'm afraid.
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John U.K.

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Re: Enfield Council PCN during an event day restriction
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2024, 01:44:07 pm »
Quote
The event day restriction zones starts from when you leave Leeside Road at the roundabout and go to any of the 3 exit roads, such as Dysons Road which the driver did. Looking at Google Maps Street View, there does not seem to be any signs mentioning when the next event day is at this roundabout junction so is it worth driving down there again to get some pictures to see what is what in terms of signs that should be there?

NO.....

Having turned right off Meridian Way the driver entered the Haringey Event Day Zone
https://new.haringey.gov.uk/parking/cpzs/map-haringey-controlled-parking-zones-cpzs
here

https://maps.app.goo.gl/M7jMcqjhxPWbVEzB6

This zone includes the whole roundabout where he turned right onto Dysons Road and ends at the junction of Dysons Road with Willoughby Lane, here
https://maps.app.goo.gl/EdeEvPEXnrTZAi659

entering the Enfield EDZ 100 yards further on,
https://www.enfield.gov.uk/services/parking/tottenham-hotspur-stadium-controlled-parking-zone-cpz
here
https://maps.app.goo.gl/G1yPmHKKNTvHcZTq5

So the driver passed two signs alerting him to ED restrictions IF the signs were correctly set.

If no-one else comes in with advice, I'd put in a simple challenge (to preserve the discount) based on Hippocrates post reply#3, that the tmescales for paying/challenging do not match the requirements of the legislation..
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confused-z

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Re: Enfield Council PCN during an event day restriction
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2024, 02:43:10 pm »
Thanks John and Incandescent, seems the driver was just not paying attention, especially if they passed 2 signs mentioning when the next event day occurred. Do you think the driver could appeal saying that the sign did not mention that an event was occurring on the 5th Jan and hope the Council don't have any evidence that does support a valid sign was in-place?

confused-z

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Re: Enfield Council PCN during an event day restriction
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2024, 02:46:02 pm »
Quote

If no-one else comes in with advice, I'd put in a simple challenge (to preserve the discount) based on Hippocrates post reply#3, that the tmescales for paying/challenging do not match the requirements of the legislation..

Is there some response template the forum has that articulates this particular appeal which the driver could just copy/modify and paste when responding to the council?

John U.K.

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Re: Enfield Council PCN during an event day restriction
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2024, 03:48:57 pm »
Absent any other suggestions, try this

Penalty Charge Notice No. AB 123456
dated 05/01/24
Reg Mark ABC123

Dear Sirs,
I wish to challenge the above PCN on the grounds that the wording of the PCN does not conform to the statutory Regulations, which is a Procedural Impropriety, and this PCN should therefore be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,
confused-z
Dated 18th January, 2024


-------------------
They will probably refuse, and in refusing re-offer the discount.
But it gives you more time to explore every possible option.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2024, 03:50:29 pm by John U.K. »
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