Author Topic: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?  (Read 3766 times)

0 Members and 1021 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #15 on: »
The evidence provided by the prosecution (Met Police) is the older TMO issued on November 2023.  This talks of the whole of kingston hill, not just the part at the top.
The other main points are that the terminal sign of the new speed limit is positioned behind a large obstruction of the driver's line of vision ( a bus stop shelter and bus stop sign).  They should have positioned it where its visibility is not obscured.
They did not stamp the roundels on the road tarmac from the start of the change of speed.  Whilst this is not a legal requirement, it was a minuted undertaking by the council that they would do this before the cameras were switched on.  To date, they have still not done this.  The minutes of the committee meeting when the speed limit change was finally approved for kingston hill are : The minutes are held on public record and are available here: https://moderngov.kingston.gov.uk/documents/g10011/Printed%20minutes%20Thursday%2011-Jul-2024%2019.30%20Kingston%20and%20North%20Kingston%20Neighbourhood%20Committee.pdf?T=1

« Last Edit: November 27, 2025, 11:34:59 am by l_maktari »

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #16 on: »
This is a link to Google maps street view of the bus stop with the sign positioned behind it
https://maps.app.goo.gl/eynt8qrqThshdRM4A
and a little bit further along when you can still hardly see it. https://maps.app.goo.gl/JZHWxzkK8896uU6P7
Here is the position of the camera.  https://maps.app.goo.gl/wzvBiCTTppe3LoeW7
If you look at the road there are no roundels, contrary to their statement that they would ensure there was adequate signage including printed 20mph roundels.  "The Committee also commented on how prominent the signage would be when the speed decreased to 20mph. It was noted that there would be a 20mph roundel in the road and the need for the sign to be prominent was understood. "  This is taken from the committee meeting and the minutes are linked to in the previous post.

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #17 on: »
So because the council didn’t do something they’re not required to do by law, the police can’t enforce the criminal law? It’s not the best argument ever, is it?
I am not qualified to give legal advice in the UK. While I will do my best to help you, you should not rely on my advice as if it was given by a lawyer qualified in the UK.

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #18 on: »
I can see how a bus present at the stop might obstruct your view of the signs on approach to an extent, but once past the stop you've still got a decent opportunity to see them (https://maps.app.goo.gl/y9N3xcjhfiF8aucQ8). I think it might be an uphill battle to convince a court that one could "hardly see it". There is also a 'reminder' sign just before the speed camera (https://maps.app.goo.gl/xXuH4w2njBWVkZ7w9).

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #19 on: »
Lots of irrelevant noise about optional signage, not so much noise about the TRO the police are relying on apparently being outdated (revoked).
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.
Like Like x 1 View List

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #20 on: »
Lots of irrelevant noise about optional signage, not so much noise about the TRO the police are relying on apparently being outdated (revoked).

Yes, no one has said if this could be an argument in my defence.  I am really worried about the 9 points as I am also the main insured driver on our community fridge van.  Going from a clean license to 9 points will push us into a different scale of insurance premiums.

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #21 on: »
I don’t think you will get very far with an argument about inadequate signage. As well as that, you really need to concentrate on a single aspect of your defence rather than have a “shopping basket” of deficiencies that you will be asking the court to consider.

I think you need to investigate the history behind the two Traffic Orders.

The one cited by PC Wilson in his evidence pack (The Kingston upon Thames (20 mph Speed Limit) (No. 5) Traffic Order 2023) seems to include Kingston Hill in its entirety.

However, the one I found (The Kingston upon Thames (20mph Speed Limit) No. 1) Traffic Order 2024) mentions a specific section of that road, namely “Kingston Hill between its junction with Queens Road and a point 150 metres east of its junction with Warren Road”.

It seems from “tittle tattle” that Kingston Hill was omitted from the earlier Order. According to the tittle tattle, there was debate surrounding where a 20mph limit should commence (in the direction towards Kingston town centre) and so Kingston Hill was left out of the otherwise almost blanket 20mph imposition whilst a study could be undertaken. My suspicion that Kingston Hill was left out of the earlier order may well be true because otherwise there would be no point in making the later, more specific order.

I think you should contact Kingston Council (020 8547 5000 between 9am and 5pm Mondays to Fridays, according to their website) to gain sight of both these orders.

If the earlier order excludes Kingston Hill then the evidence provided by PC Wilson does not support the charge but I would imagine that error could be rectified in court.

If so, that leaves the question of where the limit actually begins and how that ties in with the placement of the terminal signs. The difficulty with that, as I mentioned earlier, is that the point that is 150 metres east of Kingston Hill’s junction with Warren Road is not on Kingston Hill at all, but probably somewhere in the gardens towards the end of nearby Eastcotte Close.
Like Like x 1 View List

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #22 on: »
Quote
What's your point? I just posted I would take a look.

Because, judging from your signature, I thought that was your field of expertise.

Did you take a look?
Nope. If Mr Plod makes a statement, what has a TMO or certificates got to do with it anyway? Speeding stuff is not my expertise. Signage is possibly.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2025, 09:33:50 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #23 on: »
Quote
If Mr Plod makes a statement, what has a TMO or certificates got to do with it anyway?

Because - in this case anyway - there is a possibility that the TMO, which Mr Plod relies on to show that the offence was committed, might be deficient.

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #24 on: »
There are 2 TMOs I believe.  The first one, from November 2023 which the Met Police rely on in their prosecution, includes the whole of Kingston Hill.  That TMO applies to 181 roads cited under that TMO, including Kingston Hill.  If that TMO were the one in force, the signage is non-existent from the start of the road which is where Kingston Vale ends, just by Cedar Close.  Here is the google maps reference: https://maps.app.goo.gl/1uNKNf8kcppdxbd78

For that reason, I believe it does not comply with the law which stipulates that new speed limits have to have new terminal signs right from the start of the new speed limit.  There is no terminal sign for over 0.5 miles from the start of Kingston Hill to where the terminal sign is actually positioned. 

However, that TMO was hotly contested and not initially approved by the neighbourhood committee because it was deemed to be badly positioned with serious potential impact on traffic flow coming straight off the A3.  Eventually, the committee gave in under assurances that it would be well marked, the roads would have stamped 20mph roundels etc... as I have already stated earlier.  It eventually got approved in August 2024 which is when the second TMO P336 was published.  https://publicnoticeportal.uk/notice/traffic-and-roads/66c86597dfa4ae951ceaff5c
That is the second TMO.  However, now I have looked at it, the position of the speed cameras is before the start of the new 20mph zone which, as the TMO states, is 150 meters east of the junction between Kingston Hill and Warren Road.  This position is somewhere at the back of the gardens of Eastcott Close and Coombe Ridings, and not on Kingston Hill.  In which case, has this TMO been correctly thought through and implemented? 

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #25 on: »
Have you actually seen the TMO itself?

What you have linked to (and what I found as well) is not the TMO. It is a publication on a media portal provided for public notices.

You need to look at the TMO itself. The notice provides a link to view it but it doesn't work. I suggest you contact Kingston Council via one of the other methods shown in section 3 of the notice.

As you realise (and as I pointed out earlier) 150 metres east of Kingston Hill's junction with Warren Road is not on the highway at all and it is impossible from that description to determine where the limit actually begins. You need to know where it does so as to compare it with where the terminal "20" sign is located and where the camera that detected you is.

At its junction with Warren Road, Kingston Hill runs at a heading of almost precisely North-North-East (+/- a degree or two). I'm wondering if he actual TMO says "North East" (which would probably suffice) rather than East.

You also need to find out what happened about Kingston Hill in the earlier "blanket" TMO. What PC Wilson has provided seems to suggest it remained in the Schedule when the order was made (which, if it was, raises the question of why the second TMO was necessary).

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #26 on: »
Here is a link to the planned siting of signs etc... of the TMO which was approved in 2024.

https://moderngov.kingston.gov.uk/documents/s105991/Annex%201%20-%20PLAN%2020mph%20Kingston%20Hill.pdf

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #27 on: »
Here is the link to the RBK Moving Traffic Restrictions Order 2024  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VH0h-JkSu_5okGFuF0hcgwco-eFnkXIO/view?usp=drive_link. I've asked a friend to find the specific TMO this afternoon. 
It is a very big document with all new traffic restrictions from August 2024 where everything is deeply embedded in various layers - probably in the hope that no one can find what they are looking for.   However, I have found gross inaccuracies regarding Kingston Vale which is my neck of the woods. 
They put a link on their website to this app which has maps of all the streets and they have indicated in red line that Kingston Vale is 20mph on that map.  However, There are clearly positioned terminal signs of 30mph as you go out of the Kingston Vale estate streets onto the main Kingston Vale road.  I don't know what the heck they are playing at.  Is it 20mph or 30mph?  Why have they recently put new 30mph signs at the junctions of Kingston Vale with Derwent Avenue and Robin Hood Lane as you exit those two roads if the speed limit is 20mph?  I am seriously confused.  https://streets.appyway.com/kingston-upon-thames

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #28 on: »
And here is a link to a chocolate teapot.
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.
Dislike Dislike x 1 View List

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #29 on: »
And here is a link to a chocolate teapot.
My brain feels like it's turning into one.