Saw a video of a Manchester City enforcement officer asking dog walker if they have a poo bag.
Apparently it is an offence not to be have one if you are walking a dog in certain areas.
As a responsible dog owner I always have bags on me and my worst nightmare is the dog pooing and I can't pick it up.
I get the principle of fining if you don't pick it up, but fining if you can't produce a means of picking up poo, is that enforceable/legal?
If it happened to me I'd just say I'll use my sock 😉
Another (mis)use of a public spaces protection order? I’m not sure they have the vires to require the production of proof (i.e. you must produce a poo bag on demand). It’s ridiculous.
It depends on the PSPO, HMG reckon that carrying poo bags and a scoop (I don't own one, handling my own dog's poo through a bag isn't a problem) can be required by the PSPO.
You can be fined if your dog is out of control in public - find out about Dog Control Orders, banned dogs, dog fouling and reporting a dangerous dog
(enforcement is by £100 on the spot fines, or risk upto £1000 in Court)
My own Council (Walsall) have one PSPO, covering the town centre, and the relevant section of must dos is
It is ordered that the following specified things are done by persons carrying on specified activities in this restricted area.
1. Any person in charge of a dog in a public place must keep the dog on a lead or otherwise under physical control at all times.
I presume that they could insert a point about carrying the means to clear up any dog fouling at all times in this section, and anything else that isn't discriminatory that they feel like- wearing an upper body covering (as well as a lower body covering) springs to mind.
The BBC reported that someone was fined for no poo bags
I recall reading a thread somewhere about an owner being fined because they had used their last bag clearing up and no longer had the means to clear up as required, but I can't track it down.
EDIT:
I don't know why I didn't think of this in the first place, but Manchester publish their PSPOs
Public Space Protection Order
and indeed it does state
A person in charge of a dog on land specified in the Schedule to this Order must have with him an appropriate means to pick up dog faeces deposited by that dog forthwith unless :-
(a) he has reasonable excuse for failing to do so; or
(b) the owner, occupier or other person or authority having control of the land has consented (generally or specifically) to his failing to do so.
The obligation is complied with if, after a request from an authorised officer or constable, the person in charge of the dog produces an appropriate means to pick up dog faeces.
SP's point was not that the PSPO didn't purport to give themselves the power to issue fines for failing to prove that they had a poo bag to hand, but whether the enabling primary legislation provided such powers. Secondary legislation cannot do what the enabling legislation does not provide for it to be able to do.
Obviously I bow to those with Legal Qualifications, but to my reading, section 59 of the Anti Social Behaviour Crime and Policing act 2014 does provide for making it a requirement to carry something to clean up after your dog, provided that:
There is a persistent problem with dog fouling in that area (would be stated in the order)
It is reasonable for a person in charge of a dog to carry the means to clean up after it (I would agree that it is, sitting typing with half a dozen bags in my pocket)
The justification for it being that having the means to clean up after your dog demonstrably would
reduce that detrimental effect or to reduce the risk of its continuance, occurrence or recurrence
as not having anything to clean it up would either mean it would be left there, or you'd have to pick it up in your bare hands (unlikely), or as Glitch suggested, in your sock! (again, unlikely unless there was a suitable enforcer watching you)
An Act to make provision about anti-social behaviour, crime and disorder, including provision about recovery of possession of dwelling-houses; to make provision amending the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991...
I see the point of my post has eluded most people.
Obviously I bow to those with Legal Qualifications, but to my reading, section 59 of the Anti Social Behaviour Crime and Policing act 2014 does provide for making it a requirement to carry something to clean up after your dog
It being a requirement to carry something to clean up after your dog is not necessarily the same thing as it being a requirement to prove to a council employee who stops you in the street that you are carrying such items.
I see the point of my post has eluded most people.
That was the key question for me. Seeing someone spit, or dropping litter, or not picking up your dog's poo is understandable.
Being able to produce a poo bag is not proof you are going to use it.
Why not insist people have a bag to spit in or to carry their litter, or fine people just for chewing gum in case they spit it out?
Or, empty your pockets to see if there is anything on your person that could become litter.
It seems a step too far. crime prevention enforcement!
Presumably under the "reasonable excuse" provision you could argue that you had used the two bags you brought with you and the dog never usually craps more than twice. I don't know if you could use the same provision to argue that your dog only craps in your back garden and never in the street.
I'm glad I don't own a dog.
Obligations on persons with dogs:
4. Fouling
If a dog defecates at any time on land specified in the Schedule to this Order a person who is in charge of the dog at the time must remove the faeces from the land forthwith unless -
(a) he has reasonable excuse for failing to do so; or
(b) the owner, occupier or other person or authority having control of the land has consented (generally or specifically) to his failing to do so.
5. Means to pick up
A person in charge of a dog on land specified in the Schedule to this Order must have with him an appropriate means to pick up dog faeces deposited by that dog forthwith unless :-
(a) he has reasonable excuse for failing to do so; or
(b) the owner, occupier or other person or authority having control of the land has consented (generally or specifically) to his failing to do so.
The obligation is complied with if, after a request from an authorised officer or constable, the person in charge of the dog produces an appropriate means to pick up dog faeces.
Exemptions
Nothing in this Order shall apply to a disabled person (within the meaning of the Equality Act 2010) whose disability restricts his ability to comply with the Order and the dog is their guide dog or assistance dog.
For the purpose of this Order:
(a) Restricted Area means the land designated in the Schedule to this Order.
(b) A person who habitually has a dog in his possession shall be taken to be in charge of the dog at any time unless at that time some other person is in charge of the dog.
(c) Placing the faeces in a receptacle on the land which is provided for the purpose, or for the disposal of waste, shall be sufficient removal from the land.
(d) Being unaware of the defecation (whether by reason of not being in the vicinity or otherwise) shall not be a reasonable excuse for failing to remove the faeces.
(e) "an authorised officer " means an employee, partnership agency or contractor of Manchester City Council who is authorised in writing by Manchester City Council for the purposes of giving directions under the Order.
(f) An assistance dog, in general, is one that is trained to aid or assist a disabled person.
(g) An appropriate means is defined as any poop scoop bag, disposal bag or other suitable container for disposal of dog faeces. By way of guidance a trouser or coat or other pocket is not such an item. Neither is a handbag, rucksack, purse or sports bag.
They seem to be very specific about what is not an appropriate means, therefore hat and sock would definitely be worth arguing over.
Presumably under the "reasonable excuse" provision you could argue that you had used the two bags you brought with you and the dog never usually craps more than twice. I don't know if you could use the same provision to argue that your dog only craps in your back garden and never in the street.
I'm glad I don't own a dog.
It'll be interesting to hear the different excuses people come up with. Sounds like a minefield.
Always carry several poo bags.
Speaking from experience, scraping up dog diarrhea from tarmac leaves residue. Does that mean a fine?
Owning a dog can be a real PITA at times, but overall me and the missus find it very rewarding. Certainly gets me out every day.
Have we got a link to this video? Generally I work on the basis that everything on the internet is bollox unless a) I know it is coming from a reputable site/source and b) it is proven otherwise.
bbc.co.uk
manchester.gov.uk
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