Author Topic: Alleged 40mph in a 20 + Wheelies and Weaving  (Read 3958 times)

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tyronejiggles

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Alleged 40mph in a 20 + Wheelies and Weaving
« on: September 13, 2025, 12:14:50 pm »
Hello all,

I would be grateful for some advice on my situation. I have received a Single Justice Procedure notice for a motoring offence and have submitted my plea, but I am now unsure of the next steps and the best way to prepare my defence.

The Situation:

Date of Alleged Offence: 12th March 2025

Charges:
Speeding - exceed 20 mph - Local Order (alleged speed 40 mph)
Drive a mechanically propelled vehicle without due care and attention

My Status: I am a "new driver." I got my full motorcycle license in June 2023, so the offence date falls within my first two years. I currently have a clean license. My main goal is to avoid getting 6 points and having my license revoked.

Plea: I have already responded to the SJP online and have pleaded NOT GUILTY to both charges. This was submitted around two weeks ago, and I have a screenshot confirmation, but I have not heard anything since.

The Officer's Statement & My Defence:

The officer's statement alleges that he was in a marked police vehicle and saw me on my Yamaha MT-07 riding at speed, performing "wheelies," and "weaving in and out of traffic."

My defence is based on the following points:

Contesting the Speeding Charge:
The statement of facts claims "The speed recorded by means of Speed LTI 20/20 was 40 miles per hour."
I strongly believe this is an administrative error. The officer's narrative does not describe him stopping to use a laser device. He saw me for approximately 10 seconds while he was also driving. I believe it is highly improbable, if not impossible, for him to have obtained a valid reading with an LTI 20/20 from a moving vehicle in these circumstances. I believe his assessment of my speed was an estimate.

Contesting the "Without Due Care" Charge:
I deny the allegations. I will be pleading not guilty on the basis that I was not riding in the manner described (no wheelies or dangerous weaving).

Key Evidence:

The officer's statement mentions two pieces of video evidence: body-worn video (marked QDC/1) and CCTV (marked QDC/2). I have not yet seen any of this video evidence.

Previous History:

For full transparency, I have no points on my license. However, I did a Driver Awareness Course around June 2024 which was offered in lieu of prosecution for what I believe was also a "driving without due care" allegation.

My Questions for the Forum:

- After pleading "Not Guilty" via the SJP online portal, what is the usual procedure and timeframe for receiving a court date for the first hearing? Should I be proactively contacting the court to confirm they've received my plea?
- What is the correct procedure and timing for requesting the disclosure of the video evidence (QDC/1 and QDC/2) from the CPS? This seems critical to my entire defence.

- How strong is the challenge against the alleged LTI 20/20 speed reading? How can I best argue in court that this was likely an administrative error and that the evidence is just the officer's opinion of my speed?

- Given that the "due care" charge is currently my word against the officer's, what is the best strategy for preparing my defence before I get to see the video evidence?

- What are the likely penalties if I am found guilty of one or both offences? Is there any realistic way to avoid a license revocation if I do end up with 6 or more points?

Thank you in advance for any guidance you can offer.

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Freecall

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Re: Alleged 40mph in a 20 + Wheelies and Weaving
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2025, 01:01:32 pm »
Without commenting on your case which you have described or the actions you have taken so far, addressing your specific questions:


My Questions for the Forum:

- After pleading "Not Guilty" via the SJP online portal, what is the usual procedure and timeframe for receiving a court date for the first hearing? Should I be proactively contacting the court to confirm they've received my plea?

You will receive a postal requisition to attend court in order that the matter can be case-managed (formally enter your plea, set a trial date, order a timetable for service of evidence and so on).

- What is the correct procedure and timing for requesting the disclosure of the video evidence (QDC/1 and QDC/2) from the CPS? This seems critical to my entire defence.

Evidence which the prosecution will rely on will  be disclosed in compliance with the timetable set by the Court at the case management hearing (often referred to as an NGAP court).

- How strong is the challenge against the alleged LTI 20/20 speed reading? How can I best argue in court that this was likely an administrative error and that the evidence is just the officer's opinion of my speed?

The officer will be called as a witness (whom you or your solicitor can cross-examine), you have not told us what your reasoning is for your view that this matter "was likely an administrative error and that the evidence is just the officer's opinion of my speed" so no idea.

- Given that the "due care" charge is currently my word against the officer's, what is the best strategy for preparing my defence before I get to see the video evidence?

You don't need to do anything at present but I would think very carefully about your interpretation of events compared to that of the officer. Do you really think that you have a defence given that you can be pretty certain that the court will be able to see for itself what actually happened?

- What are the likely penalties if I am found guilty of one or both offences?

Careless driving will attract a fine (which can be wide-ranging in amount depending on the severity of the offence but from what you say probably something like Band B to C fine or 100-150% of your relevant weekly income).  You will also receive points on your licence of between 3 ad 9 points or a disqualification if the matter is considered to be serious enough.  From what you say, the most likely is probably at the lower end of this range, perhaps 3-6 points - but of course nobody on here saw what happened so we can't really know.

- Is there any realistic way to avoid a license revocation if I do end up with 6 or more points?

No, this is an automatic administrative matter handled by the DVLA.

Thank you in advance for any guidance you can offer.

Southpaw82

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Re: Alleged 40mph in a 20 + Wheelies and Weaving
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2025, 02:19:20 pm »
The most obvious question is why is the police officer (or officers) saying that you were pulling wheelies and weaving if you weren’t? That’s hardly a matter of interpretation, particularly if it’s caught on camera.

Or is the reality that you’re seeing what they might be able to prove, rather than what actually happened?
I am not qualified to give legal advice in the UK. While I will do my best to help you, you should not rely on my advice as if it was given by a lawyer qualified in the UK.

NewJudge

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Re: Alleged 40mph in a 20 + Wheelies and Weaving
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2025, 02:37:03 pm »
The speeding offence is likely to attract six points.

How fast do you believe you were travelling?

mickR

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Re: Alleged 40mph in a 20 + Wheelies and Weaving
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2025, 06:32:30 pm »
what did the officers statement say regards where he was, ie parked up assessing traffic, driving along the carriageway, stationary in traffic??
where do you think he was?
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tyronejiggles

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Re: Alleged 40mph in a 20 + Wheelies and Weaving
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2025, 09:58:57 am »
@Southpaw82
The reality may be more that I am trying to see what they can prove. Would that be an unadvisable approach?

tyronejiggles

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Re: Alleged 40mph in a 20 + Wheelies and Weaving
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2025, 10:00:48 am »
@mickR

The officer was at a red light at a junction where I turned left (he would've been on the right, perpendicular at the red light, thus now behind me once I'd turned left). I am 100% sure he was simply stopped at a red light but moving in traffic (wasn't parked). I know he didn't use a Speed LTI 20/20 device, if you read his witness statement, it's made clear that all his observations of my speed are clearly based in estimates and he likely chose the wrong charge from a template.

tyronejiggles

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Re: Alleged 40mph in a 20 + Wheelies and Weaving
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2025, 10:01:15 am »
@NewJudge
Unsure, but definitely not 40mph.

tyronejiggles

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Re: Alleged 40mph in a 20 + Wheelies and Weaving
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2025, 10:05:07 am »
@Freecall

Thank you for your in-depth response. My main issue is avoiding revocation. Should I admit guilt, do you think I stand any chance of avoiding revocation given the below mitigation:

- Genuine remorse shown with an apology read
- This alleged offence occurred over 6 months ago now, and I have had no motoring or otherwise issues with police since
- I've since upgraded my license from A2 to A around 2 months ago in order to improve my skills and awareness as a result of this offence
- I understand the typical case for a new driver is points over disqualification, however revocation has significantly greater consequences in my unique case: specifically, a driver can simply retake their theory and book a practical test for about less than 100 quid. In my case, I'd have to retake theory, CBT, mod 1 and mod 2 (£600 at a minimum), wait another 2 years, then retake my A test (another set of mod 1 and mod2, another £600 minimum). This is a far greater punishment than for a driver who could be back to where they were within a week.

mickR

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Re: Alleged 40mph in a 20 + Wheelies and Weaving
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2025, 10:06:06 am »
where does it state he was using an LTI20/20 ?
you say his statement makes it clear it was his estimation.
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tyronejiggles

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Re: Alleged 40mph in a 20 + Wheelies and Weaving
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2025, 10:28:30 am »
@mickR
the charge sheet says: Speeding - exceed 20 mph - Local Order - manned equipment
Reported Speed(mph): 40
At 23:00 l pointed out the offence(s) as:
139 - Excess speed (20 mph) local order - Speed LTI 20-20
192 - Driving without due care

Southpaw82

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Re: Alleged 40mph in a 20 + Wheelies and Weaving
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2025, 10:56:55 am »
@Southpaw82
The reality may be more that I am trying to see what they can prove. Would that be an unadvisable approach?

Depends on how much money you want to risk. You will be served (if you have not been already) with the initial details of the prosecution case. There is limited scope to get further information, particularly without a not guilty plea. Once you enter a not guilty plea the potential court costs start to escalate. If you are found guilty after a trial, the CPS will often ask for costs of around £600, assuming they haven’t had to call an expert witness (which can cost thousands).
I am not qualified to give legal advice in the UK. While I will do my best to help you, you should not rely on my advice as if it was given by a lawyer qualified in the UK.

mickR

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Re: Alleged 40mph in a 20 + Wheelies and Weaving
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2025, 11:09:23 am »
it does appear to be conflicting evidence.
unless the NIP has generic info or there has been human error on the NIP. either way i would doubt it will make any difference as the officers evidence will undoubtedly be enough.
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NewJudge

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Re: Alleged 40mph in a 20 + Wheelies and Weaving
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2025, 12:44:12 pm »
Did you actually commit either of these offences?

In particular, were you exceeding the speed limit? It seems you are only sure of what speed you were not doing, not what speed you were. If you were, pleading not guilty carries a considerable risk. The officer will give his evidence that you were speeding. You will then have to give yours. What will that consist of, bearing in mind you are not sure what speed you were travelling at? Of course you could choose not to offer any evidence. then the court will simply base their verdict on the officer's testimony.

Similarly for the careless driving. Are you saying the officer was mistaken?

If you are convicted of both offences you will see only one lot of points imposed (for the offence which attracts the highest number). From your very brief description, it is unlikely that the careless driving offence will attract more than five. But the speeding - if he court accepts the speed alleged - would almost certainly see six points. The band of seriousness runs from 31 to 40mph and the suggested penalty is either a ban or 4-6 points. Whilst the sentencing is not a precise mathematical exercise, it is obvious that the court will consider that the top of the sentencing range is appropriate for an offence which is at the top of the speed range. this is especially so when the offence is aggravated by an allegation of careless driving.

Your mitigation is unlikely to cut much ice. Whilst committing further offences since this incident would certainly aggravate these offences, having a clean record since then does not mitigate them. Drivers should not commit motoring offences, and not having done so recently does no mitigate any committed earlier. The consequences of revocation are one of the reasons the New  Drivers' Act is in place.

You could plead guilty to speeding and offer a “basis of plea”. Your basis would be that you disagree with the speed alleged. The difficulty you have with this is that you do not know what speed you were doing.

My overall view is that you are unlikely to be acquitted of either of these offences but in particular the speeding – the one most likely to see you with six points. I think your best (and only realistic) chance of avoiding six points is to plead guilty to both, but explain to the court the extra consequences that revocation will have on you which is over and above the normal result of revocation for most people. Ask the court if, in those circumstances, they would be prepared to sentence outside their guidelines and impose fewer than six points.

Southpaw82

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Re: Alleged 40mph in a 20 + Wheelies and Weaving
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2025, 02:08:00 pm »
Is there opinion evidence of speed from more than one witness?

The OP could offer to plead guilty to the careless if the speeding is dropped.
I am not qualified to give legal advice in the UK. While I will do my best to help you, you should not rely on my advice as if it was given by a lawyer qualified in the UK.