Author Topic: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist  (Read 1991 times)

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Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
« Reply #15 on: »
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What is the best way of bringing this to the POPLA reviewer's attention ?
Refer to the page in your POPLA appeal where you included photos of the actual notice. Point out that these are the actual notice the driver received, and that what they have included in their evidence pack is not the notice the driver received, but rather what the notice should have looked like if they hadn't messed it up.

Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
« Reply #16 on: »
As far as I remember, you cannot upload documents when responding to the operators evidence. Also there is a 10,000 character limit to any response.

When you submitted the POPLA appeal, did you include photos or images of the NtD and anything else you are relying on? If so, you must explain clearly for the assessor to be able to compare what the operator has provided as evidence and what you provided. Be descriptive.

Are there any of your appeal points that the operator has not rebutted or ignored? You must point out any points you argued that have not been answered satisfactorily by the operator.

The burden of proof is on the operator to evidence their allegations. However, if they have not responded to any of your points, it should be a win for you.

For example, if you argued that the NtD was invalid as it did not contain all the relevant data and certainly was not capable of being fully compliant with PoFA but they have countered that it was and provided a photo of the NtD without the flaws, then you could point the assessor to this as follows:

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POPLA Reference: [Your POPLA Number]
Euro Car Parks (ECP) PCN: [PCN Number]


I am writing to respond to the evidence pack submitted by Euro Car Parks (ECP) regarding my appeal. While I respect the importance of presenting clear and accurate evidence in a POPLA appeal, it is deeply concerning that ECP has submitted a falsified and inaccurate version of the Notice to Driver (NtD). The version presented in their evidence pack does not match the NtD that was affixed to the vehicle, and it is clearly a stock image or facsimile designed to misrepresent what actually occurred. I would like to bring to the POPLA assessor's attention the following points:

Fabricated Notice to Driver (NtD):

The NtD attached to the vehicle was severely truncated due to a machine printing error, cutting off crucial information such as the PCN number and parking details. This made it impossible to initiate an appeal at the time. In contrast, the version provided by ECP in their evidence pack is a complete, unaltered document with all information present, including different word placements and text wrapping compared to the original.

ECP’s version of the NtD bears no resemblance to the original, as shown by the altered formatting and content placement. This should be seen for what it is — a stock image that has been submitted in an attempt to mislead the POPLA process.

The copy of the NtD I provided in my initial appeal clearly shows the printing error and I urge the POPLA assessor to compare the two versions. The discrepancies between them are not minor; they are fundamental. The operator has knowingly submitted a doctored NtD that misrepresents the actual document left on the vehicle.

Impact on My Ability to Appeal as the Keeper:

Due to the printing error on the original NtD, I was unable to provide the PCN number required to appeal through the operator’s website. As a result, I had no recourse until the Notice to Keeper (NtK) was issued. ECP’s own system relies on the PCN number, yet they failed to ensure this number was visible on the NtD left on the vehicle. This further demonstrates their negligence in complying with the process they expect an appellant to follow.

Inaccurate Reliance on PoFA:

It is laughable that ECP attempts to rely on PoFA for holding the keeper liable while simultaneously submitting an invalid and non-compliant NtD. PoFA requires that the NtD includes specific, unambiguous information, none of which was properly conveyed on the version affixed to the vehicle due to the already mentioned printing issues.

ECP's own admission in their evidence pack that they must fully comply with PoFA only reinforces the fact that they have failed to do so. They cannot hold me, as the registered keeper, liable under PoFA because the NtD they issued was defective and did not meet the requirements outlined in Schedule 4.

Misleading Representation of Contractual Breach:

ECP's photos, which purport to show a breach of contract by parking "outside a marked bay," are equally flawed. As I outlined in my initial appeal, the vehicle was parked in what appeared to be a bay, with no markings or signage to indicate otherwise. The operator’s failure to properly mark the bays or provide adequate signage to indicate that the space was not a valid bay further undermines their claim.

Operator’s Conduct:

The submission of an inaccurate and misleading NtD is not only a breach of transparency but also reflects poorly on the operator’s integrity in this case. I submit that POPLA should take this into account when considering the overall fairness and conduct of the operator. The fact that ECP cannot even provide an accurate copy of the original NtD suggests they are attempting to deceive both myself and POPLA in this matter.

Request for Fairness in Adjudication:

I request that POPLA dismiss the operator's reliance on their fabricated NtD and acknowledge that ECP has not acted in good faith by submitting false evidence. Furthermore, ECP has failed to meet the necessary legal requirements under PoFA, both in the NtD and NtK, and should not be allowed to pursue this parking charge any further.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
« Reply #17 on: »
I've submitted my response along the lines of B789/DWMB2's suggestions.

Now sitting back and waiting for their adjudication.

Thanks for all your help so far.

In the meantime, I am not letting this lie. This is a blatant attempt to mislead the adjudicator either deliberately or through laziness. I need to complain to the DVLA, the BPA and Sainsburys. Is there a contact email address for DVLA ? - clear breach of KADOE.

Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
« Reply #18 on: »
For the BPA to consider your complaint, you will first need to complain to the operator.

I'm not sure if there's a separate complaints address for KADOE or if you'd just use the general DVLA one.

Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
« Reply #19 on: »
Verification Code xxxxxxxxxxxx

Dear POPLA.
On the 13/9 I received an email from you informing me that I was in a queue and to expect a decision in 2-4 weeks.

It has now been 8 weeks. Can I please have an estimate of when I might receive your decision ? I am anxious to get on with my pursuit of the parking company for criminal fraud but I really would like to have ALL the evidence with me when I speak to my solicitor...

Many thanks...

Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
« Reply #20 on: »
POPLA are running at a fair delay at the moment.

I wouldn't waste money instructing a solicitor.

If you haven't or don't plan to, then I wouldn't claim that you are going to do so. If one of your main complaints is that the operator has been dishonest pursuing you for money, bluffing about solicitors might not do your credibility much good.

Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
« Reply #21 on: »
Not a bluff - depending on the outcome.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2024, 11:34:47 pm by Sarf London »

Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
« Reply #22 on: »
In which case, as you were.

Do keep us up to date with any progress that your solicitor achieves.

It would also be useful to know how long POPLA do eventually take - a recent poster got a outcome after around 7 weeks, certainly longer than the ambitious 2-4 they claim!
« Last Edit: November 09, 2024, 11:38:22 pm by DWMB2 »
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Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
« Reply #23 on: »
You can log onto the POPLA website with your POPLA reference number and the password they issued you and see at what stage your appeal is at. Probably still at the “in progress” stage.

If POPLA do respond to your email, please show us, so that we know what their excuse is.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
« Reply #24 on: »
Decision Successful
Assessor Name xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Assessor summary of operator case

The parking operator has issued a parking charge notice as the vehicle was not parked within a marked bay.
Assessor summary of your case

The appellant has raised the following points from their grounds of appeal:
• Driver Liability not established – the Notice to Driver is not compliant with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA).
• Keeper Liability not established - The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with POFA.
• No breach of contract.
• Inadequate signage.
• No evidence of landholder authority.

After reviewing the parking operator’s evidence, the appellant reiterates their grounds of appeal and raises new grounds of appeal advising:
• The operator refers to pre estimate of loss/breach of consumer contracts 1999.
• The copy of the notice to driver does not match the notice to driver that was placed on the vehicle.
• The notice to driver attached to the vehicle had crucial information cut off.
• They were unable to provide the PCN number as this information was cut off.
• The operator has submitted inaccurate and misleading information on the notice to driver.
• The photos show that they were parked in what appeared to be a bay.

The appellant has provided a photo of the PCN that was attached to the windscreen, photos of the appellants vehicle parked on the day of the event and copy of the notice to keeper that the operator issued as evidence to support their appeal. The above evidence will be considered in making my decision.

Assessor supporting rational for decision

I am allowing this appeal, with my reasoning outlined below: When an appeal comes to POPLA the burden of proof begins with the operator to evidence that the PCN has been issued correctly. In this case the operator has issued the PCN to the appellant as the vehicle was not parked within a marked bay. The appellant has identified themselves as the registered keeper of the vehicle. PoFA paragraph 8 (2) (g) states: “inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;” Looking at the Notice to Keeper sent on 5 August 2024 it does not inform the keeper of the discount, it advises that the discounted amount no longer applies. Therefore, the Notice to Keeper does not comply with PoFA and I must allow the appeal. It is worth also mentioning that the original notice to driver that was attached to the windscreen of the vehicle has been cut off, and important information is missing, for example the full PCN number and the full vehicle registration. The copy of the original PCN provided by the operator in their evidence does not match the dates that are visible on the original notice o driver. The appellant has raised other grounds in their appeal, but as I am allowing the appeal, it is not necessary for me to address these.

Thanks for your help guys. Pouring a large one. I notice that the assessor went for POFA compliance on the NtK as a reason to uphold but the assessor did at least acknowledge the blatant incompetence leading to potential fraud that these intellectual pygmies attempted.
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Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
« Reply #25 on: »
Winner winner, well done, and thanks for the update!

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I notice that the assessor went for POFA compliance on the NtK as a reason to uphold
As one ground to uphold is all that's required, as soon as they find one they don't bother assessing the others. If I were a betting man, I'd wager that where there are multiple potential successful grounds, they pick the 'easiest' one and use that.

Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
« Reply #26 on: »
Interesting that the POPLA assessor has found a PoFA flaw that we did not raise. The only flaw we raised with the NtK was the lack of an invitation to the Keeper to pay the charge as per 8(2)(e)(i).

The assessor has gone for failure of 8(2)(g) which wasn’t even brought up.

One to consider for the future.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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