Author Topic: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London  (Read 6612 times)

0 Members and 77 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #30 on: »
UKPC has uploaded their evidence and documents. It looks like they do have the permission to issue PCNs on where the motorcycle was parked, though the boundary lines in this image are thick and hard to tell if the vehicle was inside, outside or on the blue boundary line:





They also pointed out that my photos are old and from Google Maps:

"The images the appellant has provided of the signage are taken from google in April 2018 which does not show a true reflection of the signage on site when the parking charge was issued. Please see attached a signage plan showing the signage locations, the entrance signage proof and onsite signage proof. We feel it reasonable to suggest that the driver was advised sufficiently of the terms & conditions of parking on site."

Although the photos they provided are also from ~2 months prior (7th March vs 29 April, when PCN was issued) and some older than that.
Even in their photos, my point around the sign being on the right side of the entrance, and it being practically impossible to read after a right turn to the car park, is evident:



They then add:

"We would also contend that when a motorist enters a car park they should be at the same level of observance as when driving on a public road; When driving on the road, motorists are expected to be aware of signs when travelling at up to 70mph. In a car park, the typical driving speed is on average, much lower. We therefore contend that it is not unreasonable to expect a motorist to note the signs and to subsequently familiarise themselves with these."

Once again, referring to the photo above, as soon as the motorcycle/car completes a right turn, the sign is at a 90 degrees (at best) to their right. Even at a complete stop this is pretty hard to read!

Another point they raise is around the paved area not being designated for "bikes/ bicycles":

"The area the appellant parked in was not an authorised parking bay as there are no clear line markings to outline a bay. This is a paved pedestrian area, therefore they were causing an obstruction to passing pedestrians. This is not a paved area designed for bikes/ bicycles as the the appellant suggest."

The area is absolutely designed for bikes/bicycles; it has ground anchors (just to the left of where the bike is parked). There is no marking to show where the bikes/ bicycles parking area begin and end, and I think it's reasonable to assume that small paved area is for bikes:



Appreciate the photo above is from Google Maps, and perhaps some time ago, but that's exactly how the area still looks like (I was there less than a month ago). They haven't provided any recent photo of this area.

They have provided their contract and some other documents in PDF. Could attach those too, if you guys are interested. Popla email says I have 7 days to add comment to their evidence. Would you say above comments are good to add?

Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #31 on: »
I wouldn't worry too much about it. Their point about the signs being adequate and readable at any speed whilst in motion is laughable. Their signs are impossible to read whilst in motion under any circumstances. Additionally, there are no signs at the location where you parked the motorbike.

If this doesn't succeed at POPLA, no big deal. It has no bearing on any future action. I would place money on this never getting to a hearing in court as any claim will be discontinued or struck out.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #32 on: »
Ah that's reassuring. Would you say I should provide the comments to Popla anyway, or that doesn't make any difference? Just realised they also haven't addressed the "period of parking" point, conveniently!

Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #33 on: »
Yes, respond to any points that they have not rebutted or have failed to answer fully. Your job is to lead the POPLA assessor to the points they have failed to respond to. You only need to win on a single point.

The response can only be submitted through the POPLA web portal and is limited to 10,000 characters. So, if you think it is over that character count, simply paste your response into a text/word processor to check the total number of characters and then paste it into the POPLA response form.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
Like Like x 1 View List

Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #34 on: »
Hi, I just got one of these also! I was parked to the left of where you were parked @sinaloa, so just in front of the bicycle bay, but to the left so the bike didn't obstruct anyone or anything. I had parked there many times in the past since it wasn't in the way and there weren't any signs to say you couldn't!! I couldn't find any reference to motorcycles on any signs and given I was off the car parking area and away from everything, I thought I was fine! I tried to upload a photo but it says the upload folder is full (anyway, it was just to the left of your bike as described).

I now have a ZZPS letter since had gone on holiday a day after parking there and had been away for all the UKPC letters.

What's the upshot? I'm so upset! Cheers. Raf

Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #35 on: »
If you would like advice on your case please start your own thread. Read the "READ THIS FIRST" post at the top of the private parking forum before you do.

Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #36 on: »
Hi, I just got one of these also! I was parked to the left of where you were parked @sinaloa, so just in front of the bicycle bay, but to the left so the bike didn't obstruct anyone or anything. I had parked there many times in the past since it wasn't in the way and there weren't any signs to say you couldn't!! I couldn't find any reference to motorcycles on any signs and given I was off the car parking area and away from everything, I thought I was fine! I tried to upload a photo but it says the upload folder is full (anyway, it was just to the left of your bike as described).

I now have a ZZPS letter since had gone on holiday a day after parking there and had been away for all the UKPC letters.

What's the upshot? I'm so upset! Cheers. Raf

Yes please create a new thread for this. Use a website like https://imgur.com to host your images, and then put links in the new thread.

Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #37 on: »
Unfortunately POPLA has refused the appeal.. With a wall of text. Would you like to see it?

What should I do next? My understanding so far is they can only pursue the driver and not the keeper. Should I ignore and wait?

Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #38 on: »
POPLA's decision is not binding on you. If you ignore, the next step will be a series of debt collector letters. These are designed to sound scary, but the debt collectors have no power and can safely be ignored.

At some point after this, you will probably hear from a firm called DCB Legal, who will issue a Letter of Claim. If/when you receive such a letter come back here for advice. If they do issue a claim, as long as you defend it, then there's a very strong likelihood based on previous cases that DCB Legal will discontinue the case. Whilst we cannot offer any guarantees, if you read the following thread you will see the basis for our confidence - DCB LEGAL RECORD OF PRIVATE PARKING COURT CLAIM DISCONTINUATIONS

If you are able to share the POPLA assessment that would be good - it has no bearing on your case but it can be useful to know what arguments the assessors are coming out with, so we can try to pre-empt them when helping other people in future.

Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #39 on: »
Thank you, will do.

Here is the response in its entirety:
Quote
The appellant is appealing on behalf of the registered keeper. I have received the PCN, and I am satisfied this meets the requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and the relevant sections raised in the British Parking Association code of practice therefore, I am considering the registered keeper’s liability for the PCN. When assessing an appeal POPLA considers if the operator has issued the parking charge notice correctly and if the driver has complied with the terms and conditions for the use of the car park. The operator has provided photos of the signs displayed on site. The signs state that there is a maximum stay of 3 hours. All vehicles must be parked within a marked bay. Failure to comply with the terms will result in the issue of a parking charge notice of £100. The appellant says there is no mention of the period of parking or the land in which the vehicle was parked on, on the PCN which fails to comply with the requirements of The Protection of Freedoms Act Section 9(2)(a) and (b). Upon review of the parking charge provided by the operator I can see the operator has provided both the period of parking, which in this case is 16:36:44 and the land in which the driver parked the vehicle on which was Bell Green Retail Park. As such I am satisfied the parking charge notice contains the information required by the PoFA. The signage fails to comply with the British Parking Association code of practice 2010. The appellant says from where the vehicle was parked, none of the signs can be seen. They say the sign on entry is impossible to read. The British Parking Association (BPA) has a Code of Practice which set the standards its parking operators need to comply with. Section 19.2 of the BPA code of practice states: “Entrance signs play an important part in establishing a parking contract and deterring trespassers. Therefore, as well as the signs you must have telling drivers about the terms and conditions for parking, you must also have a standard form of entrance sign at the entrance to the parking area. Entrance signs must tell drivers that the car park is managed and that there are terms and conditions they must be aware of. Entrance signs must follow some minimum general principles and be in a standard format. The size of the sign must take into account the expected speed of vehicles approaching the car park, and it is recommended that you follow Department for Transport guidance on this. See Appendix B for an example of an entrance sign and more information about their use” Having reviewed the signage within the case file, I am satisfied that the signs have met the requirements of section 19.2. this is because the operator has shown that there is an entrance sign displayed on entry to the car park, which the driver had the opportunity to see on entry to the car park. This sign advised them to read the further terms and conditions within the car park. Therefore, it was down to the driver to read the further terms and conditions within the car park itself. I note the appellant says the sign refers to a 2 hour maximum stay however upon review of the image provided by the appellant I can see the entrance sign refers to a 3 hour maximum stay. The entrance sign provided by the appellant also advises motorists to see further terms inside the car park. The appellant says there are no signs within the area to specify whether it is designed for motorcycles only, bikes only or both. The BPA Code of Practice, paragraph 19.3 states: “signage tells drivers what your terms and conditions are, including the parking charges. You must place signage containing the specific parking terms throughout the site so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving.” Paragraph 19.3 also explains that signs “must be conspicuous and legible and written in intelligible language so that they are easy to see, read and understand.” The driver of the vehicle does not need to have read the terms and conditions of the contract to accept it. There is only the requirement that the driver is afforded the opportunity to read and understand the terms and conditions of the contract before accepting it. It is the driver’s responsibility to seek out the terms and conditions, and ensure they understand them, before agreeing to the contract and parking. Reviewing the photographic evidence of the signage on display at the site and the site map, I am satisfied that the driver was afforded this opportunity. The appellant says the motorbike was parked on the paved area designed for bikes. In this case upon review of the signs it is clear that all vehicles must be parked within a marked bay. Whilst i note the signs do not specifically refer to motorcycles or bikes, there is no requirement for the signs to refer to them. I am satisfied it is clear that by parking on site, whether that be a car, van or motorcycles, all vehicles be parked in a marked bay. The operator has provided photos of the vehicle parked. This shows the vehicle was parked on a pedestrian paved area. There are no signs or markings to suggest this area is for motorbikes or bicycles. The appellant says no evidence has been provided to show the operator has the landowners permission to issue the PCN. The British Parking Association Code of Practice sets the standards by which its members must abide by. Section 7.1 of the code confirms that if an operator does not own the land on which it is carrying out parking management, it must have the written authorisation of the landowner or their appointed agent. This must confirm the operator has the authority to carry out all the aspects of car park management for the site that it is responsible for. In particular, it must say that the landowner or agent requires the operator to keep to the Code of Practice, the details of the land and that it has the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges. In response to this ground of appeal, the operator has provided a copy of the contract, and on reviewing this, I am satisfied that the operator has sufficient authority to pursue charges on the land. The appellant has stated the operator has failed to comply with Section 2.4, 21.1 of the BPA code of practice. When there is relevant legislation and related guidance, this will define the overall standard of conduct for all AOS members. All AOS members must be aware of their legal obligations and implement the relevant legislation and guidance when operating their businesses. Examples of relevant law and guidance within this sector are: • contract law • tort of trespass • data protection law • consumer protection law • Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA), including Schedule 4 (included as Appendix C to the Code) • DVLA Guidelines for Accredited Trade Associations • equalities law. When looking at appeals, POPLA considers whether a parking contract was formed and, if so, whether the motorist kept to the conditions of the contract. As this issue holds no impact on the appellant’s ability to comply with the terms on the date of the parking event, I cannot consider it relevant to the assessment. Should the appellant wish to pursue any dispute regarding this matter, they would need to contact the operator directly. Having review both the appellants grounds of appeal and the comments raised, I conclude that the terms and conditions of the car park have not been met and the operator has issued the PCN correctly, as such the appeal is refused.

Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #40 on: »
Has absolutely no bearing on anything going forward. No one pays a penny to UKPC.

You now wait for the useless Debt Recovery Agent (DRA) letters which you ignore and we don't need to knew about. Never, ever, ever communicate with a DRA. They are powerless and must be ignored.

Eventually, you will receive a Letter of Claim (LoC) from DCB Legal. Once you do, come back to this thread and tell us. We will give you the response.

Eventually, they will issue an N1SDT claim from through the CNBC. Again, come here and show us the Particulars of Claim (PoC) and we will give you a defence to use.

99.9% guaranteed that if you follow the advice the claim will be discontinued early next year and that will be the ned of it.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
Like Like x 1 View List

Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #41 on: »
I received exactly same PCN in gallons reach becton, following your steps

Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #42 on: »
@retry, if you would like any advice on how to handle your PCN, please start a separate thread.

READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

@sinaloa, was this ever pursued i.e. did such a letter from DCB Legal or otherwise manifest?

I've received a NtK in the post detailing almost exactly the same circumstances: a motorcycle "not parked correctly within the markings of the bay or space" at Bell Green Retail Park in the same paved area as indicated in your photos. The only difference is that in the case of which I speak, the silly rider was only 'parked' there for 7 minutes, which one would imagine falls well within the reasonable 'consideration period'.

Amusingly, and what may help similarly targeted riders in their appeals, is that the sign at one of the entrances to the car park referenced in a previous post, which has already been (quite rightly) decried as unclear & virtually impossible to safely read while entering the car park, is (at the time of writing) facing the wrong way, i.e. facing drivers exiting the car park as opposed to entering.


« Last Edit: May 11, 2025, 01:03:13 pm by Foxtrot »

@sinaloa, was this ever pursued i.e. did such a letter from DCB Legal or otherwise manifest?

I've received a NtK in the post detailing almost exactly the same circumstances: a motorcycle "not parked correctly within the markings of the bay or space" at Bell Green Retail Park in the same paved area as indicated in your photos. The only difference is that in the case of which I speak, the silly rider was only 'parked' there for 7 minutes, which one would imagine falls well within the reasonable 'consideration period'.

Amusingly, and what may help similarly targeted riders in their appeals, is that the sign at one of the entrances to the car park referenced in a previous post, which has already been (quite rightly) decried as unclear & virtually impossible to safely read while entering the car park, is (at the time of writing) facing the wrong way, i.e. facing drivers exiting the car park as opposed to entering.




No actually I never received any further letters from UKPC or debt collectors. I assume the matter is closed, though of course if anything comes through, I'll post here.

This ordeal has made me (& the silly rider of course) to never visit Bell Green anymore!