Author Topic: Money Owed Court notice - Unpaid PCN - No Clear Signage - Excel Parking Bakers Street Pay & Display Uxbridge  (Read 7566 times)

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@Oldstoat Are we sure that the logic used in that case would apply to this one?

From my (admittedly very brief) reading of the 'Langley' case, part of the issue there was that the judge found Elms had played no part in conducting litigation, and had been merely been subcontracted by DCB Legal (who had handled the case on behalf of VCS) to provide advocacy on the day.

Looking at this thread, it would appear that Elms have been involved on more than a mere advocacy basis - indeed it was a solicitor from Elms who signed the Claim Form issuing proceedings.

You are spot on DWMB2. I fed the judgement to ChatGPT and it gave the exact core summery:

"An ELMS-style advocacy agent who only turns up to speak, but has not conducted the litigation and is not supervised by the litigating solicitor, has NO automatic right of audience."

Then it means not applicable in my case. However if someone else turns up apart from Elms, i.e. if Elms subcontract it to someone else then it would be applicable, right?

I fed the judgement to ChatGPT
Please don't use ChatGPT for legal advice - I once asked it how many times the lettter 'r' appears in the word 'strawberry' - its response was '2'.

However if someone else turns up apart from Elms, i.e. if Elms subcontract it to someone else then it would be applicable, right?
I imagine it would depend who that person is. If they have a right of audience before that court on their own account, then no. If they don't, then if you see fit you could try to make the argument, if you feel confident to do so.

I fed the judgement to ChatGPT
Please don't use ChatGPT for legal advice - I once asked it how many times the lettter 'r' appears in the word 'strawberry' - its response was '2'.

However if someone else turns up apart from Elms, i.e. if Elms subcontract it to someone else then it would be applicable, right?
I imagine it would depend who that person is. If they have a right of audience before that court on their own account, then no. If they don't, then if you see fit you could try to make the argument, if you feel confident to do so.

Agreed, not for legal advice but it's good for summary and reframing the statements but obviously should be fully reviewed. Thanks.

I have sent my witness statement, along with exhibits.

I have found so many holes in their witness statement like its crazy how is this case allowed to continue, waste everyone's time. I just hope that I am able to represent myself at the hearing and able to convey my findings as I have captured in the witness statement.

I am really annoyed that a false claim is being pursued, wasting my and court's time, and giving me anxiety and stress.

On to the hearing on 30th.

On another note re costs schedule, if judgement comes in my favour then how do I proceed with the costs schedule as it's completely unreasonable conduct. Do we submit costs schedule at the hearing itself?

Thanks for all your support.

For example, https://dwfgroup.com/en/news-and-insights/insights/2014/12/what-amounts-to-unreasonable-behaviour-in-the-small-claims-track
Quote


Rule 27.14(2)(g) states that the court may summarily assess a party’s costs and order them “to be paid by a party who has behaved unreasonably”. This is in many ways the most significant exception to the no costs rule, because it provides for the court to award more in costs than those amounts proscribed elsewhere in the rule.

The CPR contains little guidance for the court to follow in assessing unreasonableness, save for 27.14(3) which states that a party’s rejection of an offer of settlement “will not of itself constitute unreasonable behaviour”; but the court can take it into account when applying the test.

Given that the special costs rules of the small claims track are arguably its raison d’être, Judges can be reluctant to order costs for unreasonable behaviour, especially when a party is unrepresented, but we believe that there are a number of features that when present together might mean that such an order is attainable and we list a few of these below:

A consistent failure to respond to correspondence and/or telephone calls
A failure to properly set out a case in respect of liability and/or quantum pre-litigation
An unwillingness to discuss the case and narrow issues
Dilatory conduct leading to delay
A claim that is unreasonably made and without merit
Exaggeration of a claim and/or dishonesty
A failure to follow the standard Small Claims track directions
Where any of these features are present in a case, then steps should be taken to place the party on notice that an order for unreasonable conduct will be sought in the event that proceedings are issued.
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Ensure that when you get to the hearing you put emotions to one side - I certainly wouldn't use words like "false claim" and "waste everyone's time", you should be calmly putting across your points, ensuring that each one you make is backed up by applicable evidence. The signage isn't great, but it isn't entirely non-existent, so on those points you'll need to focus on why the signage present was insufficient.

If you believe costs are owed, you could take with you on the day a simple costs schedule. The bar for unreasonable conduct is high - I'd personally be surprised if a judge took the view that Excel's conduct (or that of their solicitors) met that threshold, but if you win there is little harm in asking.

I have just got an email back from Elms, saying they do not accept service via email and only via post.
 
Should I send witness statement and exhibits via post? And would 14 day timeline matter here?

"
Good afternoon,

 

Thank you for your email.

 

Please note that we do not accept service via email, only via post to 31 Handley Street, Sleaford, Lincolnshire, NG34 7TQ.

 

Kind Regards

 

Emily Scriminger-Faulkner

 

Deputy Team Leader

 

ELMS Legal Limited
"

Hi All,

I couldn't update earlier but I had my hearing last Friday and it was a success  :D . Claim was dismissed.

Key takeaways from the hearing:

1. It started bit late and lasted about 45min

2. Hearing Judge was very thorough and asked lots of questions to understand my side of story. Then he probed claimant's representative.

3. Referring defence statement (that generic statement I sent earlier), he said he is not bound to agree to another district judge's order. If the order was from higher courts then he will have to adhere to that but not necessarily if a certain order was from another district judge.

3. In his judgement, he made it very clear to me that I am not going to entertain your argument around the procedural defects related to PoC. He said your case has gone through a district judge and the fact that judge allowed the case to continue, did not strike it down and did not ask claimant for an updated PoC, hence he will not consider those arguments.

4. Finally he said I will only consider whether the signage was adequate or not. And on that argument, considering claimant's evidences and statement, and my evidences and arguments, he agreed that signage was not clear and not adequate, and dismissed the claim on that basis.

I think one thing helped was that I did not claim that I didn't see the sign on adjacent pillar. I said I saw the sign on the right side pillar, but no sign on my left side 4 pillars, I believed restriction was only for the right side bays.

So it all came down to actual issue - inadequate signage and I won because there was in fact inadequate signage.

I was bit surprised he did not consider PoFA violations, some false claims in the witness statement, and dismissed those arguments under procedural defects. I was not allowed to speak when he was making his final judgement.

I won only on the core issue, and all other supplementary issues in my witness statement were dismissed. Made me wonder I won't have won if they had any solid evidences for that core issue. In this particular case - defective PoC, questionable landowner authority, PoFA violations etc did not matter.

I don't know if other cases are like this but I felt just putting up the defence and standing up to fight wasn't enough.

Thanks for reading and all the support. It's been an experience.

Cheers
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Well done for standing your ground and seeing the matter out!

So it all came down to actual issue - inadequate signage and I won because there was in fact inadequate signage.
When cases get as far as an actual hearing, it often does. In my admittedly anecdotal experience, in the Small Claims Track many judges are most interested on the core issue at hand, and far less on 'technical' arguments. This was the basis of me recommending leading with the signage in the Witness Statement

I was bit surprised he did not consider PoFA violations
From your post above and comments like "I said I saw the sign" - it seems that it was clear you were the driver, and as such PoFA became irrelevant.