Author Topic: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'  (Read 3738 times)

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PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
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I was looking for some advice regarding the following situation if you could help please.

The driver of the car on 27/09/2024 it seems entered the car park to turn the car around and promptly left.

The letter which has been received, seems an escalation and has been recieved a fair while from the date shown and talks about parking breach which nobody was aware of. 

I have the V5, as a registered keeper

Any help regarding contesting this would be greatly appreciated. Should the company be contacted regarding missed/delayed communication what would be the best way to reply?

If any more information is required please let me know.


https://imgur.com/a/2de4bZ0

I will attach other pictures asap
« Last Edit: December 05, 2024, 07:21:49 am by badrav »

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Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
« Reply #1 on: »
Are you saying the you do not have or did not receive the original postal Notice to Keeper (NtK)?

If you have it, we need to see that (both sides) leaving all dates and times visible. Any reminder is of little use in trying to formulate a response.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
« Reply #2 on: »
So, how long was the vehicle in this car park?

Can you get photos of the signage?

Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
« Reply #3 on: »
@b789 Thanks, yes unfortunately not sure why but only recieved this reminder. Could be lost in the post or otherwise. Should I call them and ask them to resend/email?


@Dave65 Thanks, wouldve been in for less the 5,; Attached the signage

https://imgur.com/a/eY4UJIx
« Last Edit: December 06, 2024, 06:29:48 am by badrav »

Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
« Reply #4 on: »
So, this could be a case of "Unforbidden Signage" and offer no contract to park.

Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
« Reply #5 on: »
"Forbidding signage" - i.e. signage that does not offer any consideration. The sign you have shown us (other than the instructions for registration) looks like the entrance sign, saying on it "See car park signs for terms and conditions" - can you show us one of those terms and conditions signs please?

Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
« Reply #6 on: »
Thanks @Dave65 not sure what unforbidden signange is

Thanks @DWMB2 ive been to the site again and this is all the signage displayed atm

https://imgur.com/a/EVAfGgf

Just got this 🤦‍♂️

https://imgur.com/a/AfaW4yC
« Last Edit: December 07, 2024, 11:39:00 am by badrav »

Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
« Reply #7 on: »
We don't need to know about any dent recovery letters and you can safely ignore them. Use them as kindling. They are useless and powerless to do anything. Ignore them. Never, ever, ever, communicate with a useless debt collector.

The sign you've shown primarily offers terms for authorised parking and does not create a clear 'contractual offer' to the driver unless they meet specific conditions. The sign states that only "parishioners and authorised visitors" who register their vehicle on a touchscreen inside the premises are eligible to park.

This implies that no offer is being made to the general public for parking. Instead, it restricts the premises to authorised users only. The sign explicitly states, "General public parking is not permitted" which further supports that it is not an invitation to enter into a parking contract for anyone other than authorised users.

The phrase "If you breach any of these terms, you will be liable to a parking charge of up to £100" implies that any unauthorised parking constitutes a breach, not acceptance of a contract. This approach leans more towards a prohibitive notice rather than an offer capable of forming a contractual relationship.

The sign does not clearly state any terms that would apply to someone who merely enters the premises but does not park (e.g., someone turning around). A contract requires that terms are clearly communicated and capable of being accepted by conduct. Here, the "driver turning around" scenario does not align with the parking terms specified.

For a contract to be valid, it must offer terms that are capable of acceptance. The sign's focus on "Authorised Parking Only" does not provide an offer to unauthorised users but rather seeks to exclude them.

This sign does not appear to offer a contractual relationship to unauthorised drivers (e.g., those who enter and immediately leave, or turn around). Instead, it serves as a prohibitive notice designed to restrict access to authorised users only. As such, no contract could reasonably have been formed between the driver and Civil Enforcement Ltd in this case.

As you have the PCN number, you could go onto the CEL website as though to appeal and see what, if any, evidential photos they have. Make sure you download any images. You need to find out how much time the vehicle was actually on the premises because there are other appeal points that can be made, such as "consideration" and "grace" periods.

You say the driver simply entered, turned around and left. If they simply entered and turned around and then immediately left, CEL will be put to strict proof that that was not the case.

Send the following as a formal complaint to CEL (check their complaints procedure on their website):

Quote
Subject: Request for Clarification and Re-Issuance of Notice to Keeper (NtK)

[Keeper's Name]
[Keeper's Address]
[Date]

To:
Civil Enforcement Ltd
[Address - check CEL's correspondence or website for their contact details]

Re: Parking Charge Notice Reminder for PCN [pcn number]

Dear Civil Enforcement Ltd,

I am writing regarding a reminder letter I received for an alleged parking contravention at [Location Name] on 27/09/2024. I have not received the original Notice to Keeper (NtK) that should have been sent to me, and therefore I am unable to determine the nature of the alleged contravention.

As the Keeper of the vehicle, I am entitled to receive all the information necessary to understand the alleged breach. The reminder letter fails to provide the details required to establish:

1. The exact alleged contravention.
2. Evidence supporting your claim, including any images or proof of the vehicle's actions at the site.

From the limited information provided, I understand that the driver of the vehicle on the date in question did not park but merely entered the location to turn around and promptly exited. The signage at the site, which I have reviewed, states:

"Authorised Parking Only. Parishioners and authorised visitors must obtain a parking permit by registering their full correct vehicle registration on the touch screen located inside the premises."

This wording implies that any alleged contravention applies to vehicles that remain on-site without authorisation or proper registration. The vehicle in question did not park or wait at the location and therefore could not have breached these terms.

In line with the BPA Code of Practice (version 9, applicable at the time of the alleged incident), specifically Sections 21.4, 21.5, and 23.1, I require you to:

• Provide a copy of the original NtK, which must include all necessary details of the alleged contravention, including time-stamped evidence of the vehicle's presence and proof of any alleged terms breached.
• Clarify the alleged contravention with full supporting evidence.

Furthermore, I remind you that should you fail to provide adequate evidence to support your claim, this matter will be considered unresolved, and any further action by you or your agents may be deemed unreasonable and vexatious.

If I do not receive a satisfactory response within 14 days, I will escalate this matter to the BPA and other relevant bodies for further investigation.

Please treat this correspondence as a formal complaint.

Yours faithfully,


[Keeper's Full Name]
[Keeper's Contact Information]
« Last Edit: December 07, 2024, 12:05:55 pm by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
« Reply #8 on: »
@b789 Thanks so much, will do!

Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
« Reply #9 on: »
@b789
@Dave765

Unfortunately rejected, it also seems the duration is somehow wrong they have it as almost 50 minutes which im pretty sure is wrong

If you could please let me know your thoughts


https://imgur.com/a/Wkl08Nc

Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
« Reply #10 on: »
So now you make a formal complaint to the BPA pointing out the failure of CEL to respond properly to your formal complaint to them.

Have a read through the Private Parking Single Code of Practice (SCoP) on what sections they have breached and rake those in your BPA complaint.

Private Parking Single Code of Practice
« Last Edit: December 18, 2024, 02:34:36 pm by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
« Reply #11 on: »
Thanks, ill send something to them, should I just wait for court proceedings?

Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
« Reply #12 on: »
@b789
@Dave765
@DWMB2

I am going to submit this, any thoughts?  Once I submit this, do I not need to reply to debt recovery of CE about the threatened court proceedings?

Dear BPA
Re Parking charge notice ___________
I am writing as a formal complaint against Civil enforcement limited. I have raised a complaint with them as the keeper of the vehicle regarding the lack of documentation supplied to determine the exact alleged contravention.
• No evidence has been supplied of actual parking within the site, rather the vehicle was turning within the area and obstructed by other vehicles requiring a protracted period to exit. The driver it is possible may have entered and re-entered the park to manoeuvre from passing traffic which may also have affected the duration being displayed as site entry and exit.
• 8.1.2 No notices were received, with the first documentation being a notice of debt recovery months from the alleged contravention. This in turn has not allowed any appeal within the first 28 days to be submitted and confirmed as the case in the response from CE ltd.
• 7.3 a)The photographic evidence supplied does not provide a VRM number
• 8.1.1 d) in the response from CE ltd they state that under POFA 2012 the keeper is liable for the charge
• 8.2.1 The only charge notice received is for £170
• 8.2.2 There has been no reduction offered
• 8.4.1 There has not been any opportunity to appeal the charge
• 8.4.4 No appeal has been considered
• 8.4.8 No appeals have been considered
• 10.2 No offer of appeal has been given despite confirming that notices have not been receive for the charge and the first the keeper was aware of this PCN was a debt recovery reminder.
• 11.2 no appeal opportunity was provided
• 17.3.4 The complaint and appeal submitted was not considered without any outcome given, citing it is too late to make representation despite not receiving the necessary information to be made aware the PCN was raised
• 17.4.6 No corrective action has been submitted or suggested
« Last Edit: December 24, 2024, 02:21:02 pm by badrav »

Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
« Reply #13 on: »
I haven't double checked your BPA CoP sections, but assuming you have done your homework, here is a refinement of your formal complaint about CEL to the BPA. Please read it carefully and fill in the dates and other information necessary as required:

Quote
Subject: Formal Complaint Against Civil Enforcement Ltd (CEL) – Parking Charge Notice [Insert PCN Reference]

Dear BPA Complaints Team,

I am writing to lodge a formal complaint against Civil Enforcement Ltd (CEL), a member of the BPA. This complaint follows the exhaustion of CEL’s complaints process, as evidenced by their response to my formal complaint (dated [insert date]), in which they failed to adequately address the issues raised and declined to provide any resolution. As such, I now request that the BPA investigates their conduct and non-compliance with the BPA Code of Practice.

Background of Complaint

Civil Enforcement Ltd has issued a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) for an alleged contravention at [Site Name] on [Incident Date]. However, CEL has failed in several key areas of compliance, as outlined below:

1. Failure to Provide Original Notice to Keeper (NtK):

I did not receive the original NtK; instead, I received a debt recovery notice months after the alleged contravention.

• This omission denied me the opportunity to appeal within the required 28-day period, in breach of Section 8.4.1 of the BPA Code of Practice.

2. Lack of Evidence for the Alleged Contravention:

• CEL has not provided any evidence that the vehicle was parked or breached any terms.

• The vehicle did not park but merely manoeuvred within the area to turn around, obstructed by other vehicles. CEL’s photographic evidence fails to substantiate any contravention or even display the vehicle's registration number (VRM), violating Section 7.3(a) of the Code.

3. Non-Compliance with POFA 2012:

• CEL has stated that I, as the keeper, am liable under POFA 2012. However, their procedural failings (failure to issue an NtK and denial of an appeal opportunity) invalidate any claim under POFA 2012.

• The debt recovery demand for £170 significantly exceeds the initial charge and does not include the mandatory reduced amount for prompt payment, contrary to Sections 8.2.1 and 8.2.2 of the Code.

4. Denial of Appeal Opportunities:

• CEL has failed to provide an opportunity to appeal the PCN, despite my formal request. This breaches Sections 8.4.4, 8.4.8, and 11.2 of the BPA Code.

• Their response to my complaint dismisses my concerns on the basis that it is "too late to make representations," despite the fact that I was never given the required information to appeal in the first place.

5. Failure to Properly Address a Formal Complaint:

• My formal complaint to CEL was not properly addressed, and they failed to take any corrective action, in breach of Sections 17.3.4 and 17.4.6 of the Code.

Exhaustion of CEL Complaints Process

As per the BPA Code of Practice (v9 as applicable at the time of the alleged contravention), I have followed the correct procedure by first raising my concerns directly with CEL. Their response, however, was dismissive and failed to resolve the issues raised. Consequently, I now escalate this matter to the BPA for investigation and action against their member.

Requested Action

I request that the BPA:

• Investigate Civil Enforcement Ltd’s breaches of the BPA Code of Practice, including their failure to issue an NtK, lack of evidence for the alleged contravention, denial of appeal opportunities, and failure to properly address a formal complaint.

• Take appropriate enforcement action to ensure that CEL complies with the standards expected of BPA members.

• Provide a detailed response outlining the steps the BPA will take to address these concerns and prevent similar issues in the future.

Please find attached all relevant correspondence and evidence to support this complaint. If further information is required, I will be happy to provide it.

I trust the BPA will take this matter seriously, as CEL’s behaviour undermines the integrity of its membership and the Code of Practice.

Yours faithfully,

[Your Full Name]
[Your Contact Information]
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
« Reply #14 on: »
Thanks so much @b789, what a legend 👌.