Author Topic: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle  (Read 5570 times)

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Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #15 on: »
For heavens sake! Tell your friend to tell the "fines processing team" that they never had to get in touch with CPM to transfer the liability. They only had to send the tear off form and the copies of the requested documents to CPM and that would be the end of the matter. They are obfuscating.

They really are exposing their intellectual malnourishment and shameful lack of understanding. That or they are trying to wriggle out of their liability due to their incompetence.

There is not much time left for them to transfer the liability. If CPM were really so stupid to refuse to accept a transfer of liability, they are in breach of PoFA, KADOE and the BPA CoP.

There`s no tear off - they have to fill in the details on https://transfers.uk-carparkmanagement.co.uk/

I don`t think they would have processed the PCN and notified CPM of transfer of liability on Monday 23rd     September and CPM would have got back to them before Wednesday 25th (10.37 a.m) ( it is the time my friend received the email from Tusker with details stating that CPM have refused transfer of liability.


Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #16 on: »
So, Tusker need to provide evidence of the refusal by CPM to accept transfer of liability and the reason given by CPM.

They need to read the specific paragraphs of the Act to make it clear that CPM refusing to accept transfer of liability is irrelevant. There is an Act of parliament that specifically states that as long as the hire company follows the correct procedure, liability is transferred. If CPM refuse to accept the transfer, they are acting unlawfully.

The actions taken by both Tusker and CPM are unlawful due to non-compliance with the legal framework set out in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA).

Why Tusker's Actions are Unlawful

Failing to Properly Transfer Liability Under PoFA: By providing the hirer with a letter of authorisation and a copy of the the NtK, instead of ensuring that CPM issues a Notice to Hirer (NtH), Tusker is not following the correct legal process for transferring liability. The hirer cannot be lawfully pursued based on a Notice to Keeper that was never addressed to them.

Potential Unlawful Billing of the Hirer: If Tusker pays the parking charge and then seeks to recover the amount from the hirer, it is acting unlawfully because the hirer has not been formally made liable under the law. The hirer has no legal obligation to pay a charge based solely on Tusker’s actions, as the proper transfer of liability procedure was not followed.

Why CPM's Actions are Unlawful

Refusing to Accept Transfer of Liability After Receiving Proper Documentation: If CPM has been provided with the hirer’s details and the required documents, as per PoFA paragraph 13, they are legally obligated to pursue the hirer by issuing an NtH. By continuing to hold Tusker liable even though they complied with the requirements of PoFA paragraph 13 for transfer of liability, CPM is not complying with the law.

Attempting to Enforce a Parking Charge Without Proper Transfer of Liability: CPM’s continued pursuit of Tusker for the parking charge despite having the hirer’s information means they are attempting to enforce a charge against a party who is not liable under PoFA. This goes against the intent of the legislation, which aims to ensure that liability for parking charges is properly transferred to the party who was responsible for the vehicle at the time of the alleged infringement.

Resolving This Issue Through the Legal System

If CPM continues to pursue Tusker for the parking charge, and if Tusker pays the charge and then seeks to recover it from the hirer, the following legal steps should be taken:

Tusker Should Challenge CPM in Court: Tusker should bring a claim against CPM for failing to accept the transfer of liability. They should argue that they complied with PoFA by providing the necessary documents to transfer liability to the hirer, and therefore, CPM’s continued pursuit of them is unlawful.

The Hirer Could Dispute the Charge if Billed by Tusker: If Tusker pays the parking charge and tries to recover it from the hirer, the hirer should contest this on the grounds that they were never legally made liable under PoFA. Since CPM did not issue an NtH to the hirer, there is no legal basis for Tusker to demand payment from the hirer.

Legal Recourse for the Hirer Against Tusker: If Tusker tries to recover the parking charge from the hirer, the hirer should seek legal recourse against Tusker for attempting to charge them unlawfully. This should include challenging any attempts to deduct the amount from wages (if a salary sacrifice scheme is in effect) or disputing the invoice in a small claims court.

The Proper Resolution

To resolve the situation in accordance with the law:

• CPM should issue a Notice to Hirer (NtH) after receiving the hirer’s details from Tusker. This correctly and lawfully transfers liability to the hirer.

• Tusker should not attempt to recover the charge from the hirer unless CPM has properly issued an NtH and the hirer has been lawfully made liable.

• If CPM refuses to issue the NtH, Tusker should challenge CPM's actions rather than paying the charge. This approach would uphold the legal framework established by PoFA and ensure that liability is correctly assigned.

So, this needs to be explained in detail to both Tusker and CPM. If Tusker filled in that form and provided copies of the requested documents, liability has been transferred whether CPM accepts it or not. The ball is then in CPMs court and if they are acting lawfully, they must send an NtH to the Hirer. If they don't, then the hirer is not liable. Tusker is not liable either because they followed the lawful process to transfer liability.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #17 on: »
Given Tusker's correspondence so far, if I were a betting man I'd say them having provided CPM with the required documentation is a very big 'if'.
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Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #18 on: »
So, Tusker need to provide evidence of the refusal by CPM to accept transfer of liability and the reason given by CPM.

They need to read the specific paragraphs of the Act to make it clear that CPM refusing to accept transfer of liability is irrelevant. There is an Act of parliament that specifically states that as long as the hire company follows the correct procedure, liability is transferred. If CPM refuse to accept the transfer, they are acting unlawfully.

The actions taken by both Tusker and CPM are unlawful due to non-compliance with the legal framework set out in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA).

Why Tusker's Actions are Unlawful

Failing to Properly Transfer Liability Under PoFA: By providing the hirer with a letter of authorisation and a copy of the the NtK, instead of ensuring that CPM issues a Notice to Hirer (NtH), Tusker is not following the correct legal process for transferring liability. The hirer cannot be lawfully pursued based on a Notice to Keeper that was never addressed to them.

Potential Unlawful Billing of the Hirer: If Tusker pays the parking charge and then seeks to recover the amount from the hirer, it is acting unlawfully because the hirer has not been formally made liable under the law. The hirer has no legal obligation to pay a charge based solely on Tusker’s actions, as the proper transfer of liability procedure was not followed.

Why CPM's Actions are Unlawful

Refusing to Accept Transfer of Liability After Receiving Proper Documentation: If CPM has been provided with the hirer’s details and the required documents, as per PoFA paragraph 13, they are legally obligated to pursue the hirer by issuing an NtH. By continuing to hold Tusker liable even though they complied with the requirements of PoFA paragraph 13 for transfer of liability, CPM is not complying with the law.

Attempting to Enforce a Parking Charge Without Proper Transfer of Liability: CPM’s continued pursuit of Tusker for the parking charge despite having the hirer’s information means they are attempting to enforce a charge against a party who is not liable under PoFA. This goes against the intent of the legislation, which aims to ensure that liability for parking charges is properly transferred to the party who was responsible for the vehicle at the time of the alleged infringement.

Resolving This Issue Through the Legal System

If CPM continues to pursue Tusker for the parking charge, and if Tusker pays the charge and then seeks to recover it from the hirer, the following legal steps should be taken:

Tusker Should Challenge CPM in Court: Tusker should bring a claim against CPM for failing to accept the transfer of liability. They should argue that they complied with PoFA by providing the necessary documents to transfer liability to the hirer, and therefore, CPM’s continued pursuit of them is unlawful.

The Hirer Could Dispute the Charge if Billed by Tusker: If Tusker pays the parking charge and tries to recover it from the hirer, the hirer should contest this on the grounds that they were never legally made liable under PoFA. Since CPM did not issue an NtH to the hirer, there is no legal basis for Tusker to demand payment from the hirer.

Legal Recourse for the Hirer Against Tusker: If Tusker tries to recover the parking charge from the hirer, the hirer should seek legal recourse against Tusker for attempting to charge them unlawfully. This should include challenging any attempts to deduct the amount from wages (if a salary sacrifice scheme is in effect) or disputing the invoice in a small claims court.

The Proper Resolution

To resolve the situation in accordance with the law:

• CPM should issue a Notice to Hirer (NtH) after receiving the hirer’s details from Tusker. This correctly and lawfully transfers liability to the hirer.

• Tusker should not attempt to recover the charge from the hirer unless CPM has properly issued an NtH and the hirer has been lawfully made liable.

• If CPM refuses to issue the NtH, Tusker should challenge CPM's actions rather than paying the charge. This approach would uphold the legal framework established by PoFA and ensure that liability is correctly assigned.

So, this needs to be explained in detail to both Tusker and CPM. If Tusker filled in that form and provided copies of the requested documents, liability has been transferred whether CPM accepts it or not. The ball is then in CPMs court and if they are acting lawfully, they must send an NtH to the Hirer. If they don't, then the hirer is not liable. Tusker is not liable either because they followed the lawful process to transfer liability.

I`ll get my friend to call them tomorrow to see what`s happening and update you guys.

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #19 on: »
Follow up any phone call in writing. Ideally it'd all be done in writing but I realise there's an element of urgency here.

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #20 on: »
Given Tusker's correspondence so far, if I were a betting man I'd say them having provided CPM with the required documentation is a very big 'if'.

You were spot on - So when the hiring team was spoken to and said that CPM refused liability and they will provide with details

Quote
"As discussed, we need to obtain proof from our fines processing team to confirm the authority refused to transfer over liability to you.

We will email you to let you know once we have heard back. "

It was incorrect.

Tusker was chased up today and as people mentioned here to get everything written from Tusker, my friend received the below

Quote
Hi,

We are still waiting for a response from UKCPM.

When I saw this I jumped on the phone myself, waited for a while and then the fines team answered. They mentioned that

1- The fine has been paid already because it is within the T&Cs and that Tusker reserves the right to pay the fine regardless if it is local authority or private land
2- This being a salary sacrifice scheme - UKCPM is one of those that do not accept liability
3- The hirer should have appealed to UK PCN using the permission slip.

When pressed on number 2 whether they have tried to transfer liability, they said no, they have a list of companies that refuse transfer of liability.

I have mentioned that they should reply to the complaint sent on the 10th of October and state which part of the contract gives them the right to charge the hirer when it comes to an NTK from a private company. I have also mentioned that they should include the next step in case I am not happy with their response.

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #21 on: »
This was just received via email

Quote
We are sorry to read that you are unsatisfied with Tusker's management of this fine.

Please be advised, this fine has been issued by UKCPM. This is one of many parking operators that does not accept a transfer of liability, this is due to Tusker's agreement with our drivers being a Salary Sacrifice Agreement, as the vehicle is on hire to your employer, as opposed to a Lease Agreement which would be accepted.

As a result of this, rather than making payment upon receipt of fines issued by these operators which we could do, we attempt to provide our drivers with the opportunity to manage the fines directly by forwarding our copy of the notice to them by email. This was sent to you on 25/09/2024. Please find attached a copy of the notification email.

In this email, it does explain that transfers are not accepted, and so if this notice is unactioned and we receive a second notification for the same offence, the fine will be paid and recharged to you.

Please find attached a copy of your Salary Sacrifice Agreement which you signed on 15/11/2023 before the vehicle was delivered.

Under the heading Responsibility, it does state;

12. Understand that parking or congestion charges and any other fines are their responsibility and if incurred will be recharged to them along with an administration fee.

13. Understand and agree that the Employer shall be entitled to deduct from salary, or other payments due to them, any money which they may owe or be liable to pay in respect of the Vehicle arising from their use of it at any time pursuant to the terms of this Agreement and the terms of the Scheme Policy. The Employee accepts that if the Employer is unable to recover any amounts owing from the Employee by way of such deductions, then the Employee must pay to the Employer the relevant amounts owing as a debt and upon demand.

More information on how we manage fines can also be found in your Driver Guide.

We received the second notice on 10/10/2024, and payment would now usually be made. However, we have checked online and our team have not yet made the payment. If you would like to appeal, you can by using the Third Party Letter of Authorisation which was attached to your notification email. This is our permission for you to discuss the fine on our behalf as the registered keeper, and we have received many refunds and accepted appeals from UKCPM before. Appeals can be made online.

We have asked our processing team not to make the payment on this occasion to allow you to continue your appeal, however please be advised that if we received a third notice, this will be made and recharged to yourself.

Should you remain unsatisfied with this response, please contact our Resolutions Team on resolutions@tuskerdirect.com.

Kind regards,

The Fleet Admin Team

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #22 on: »
Still calling the "fines" shows the utter incompetence of the "fines" team. I think a bit of research is required into their claim that CPM would not accept a transfer of liability just because the vehicle is "hired" to the employer and not the employee because of a salary sacrifice scheme.

All Tusker had to do was transfer liability to the Hirer, irrespective of whether it was the employer or the employee. It would then be up to the employer to deal with the convolution of who is liable. It would be the employers obligation to appeal or pass authority for the employee to deal with it.

There is no way that a hirer of a vehicle can be liable if CPM have not complied with PoFA.

Anyone with the resource or legal knowledge able to interpret further?
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #23 on: »
Reading between Tusker's jumble of words, what I think has happened here is that Tusker's have tried to nominate the OP directly, but as he is not the one Tusker's are hiring the vehicle to (that being his employer instead), CPM have not accepted this.

I don't necessarily think CPM are wrong to refuse if this is the case - if Tusker's hire agreement is between them and the employer, then they would not be able to provide to CPM the documents required under PoFA when nominating the OP.

Quite why Tusker's can't/won't nominate the employer instead, with whom they presumably do have the requisite contractual documents, who knows...

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #24 on: »
That's the point. Tuskers only have to nominate the employer. It is then up to the employer as the Hirer to sort it out with the employee. Tusker are no longer involved nor liable.

If the employer wants to offer a salary sacrifice scheme, they should make sure that they have mechanism in place to deal with exactly this situation.

This involves some real breaches of the CRA 2015 that will need to be explored as part of any remedy for the employee.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #25 on: »
Reading between Tusker's jumble of words, what I think has happened here is that Tusker's have tried to nominate the OP directly, but as he is not the one Tusker's are hiring the vehicle to (that being his employer instead), CPM have not accepted this.

I don't necessarily think CPM are wrong to refuse if this is the case - if Tusker's hire agreement is between them and the employer, then they would not be able to provide to CPM the documents required under PoFA when nominating the OP.

Quite why Tusker's can't/won't nominate the employer instead, with whom they presumably do have the requisite contractual documents, who knows...

Tusker mentioned they did not nominate the driver as CPM is apparently one of those companies that do not accept transfer of liability - but if that is the case, why would CPM then accept a third-party authorisation letter from Tusker? it doesn`t make sense, probably a legal jumble here.

Should I still appeal this with the same wording i used on this thread? https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/pcn-broadstairs-botany-bay-cpm/msg34623/#msg34623

I`ve just checked and the appeal is still open.

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #26 on: »
They can't nominate a "driver". They have absolutely no idea who was driving. They can only nominate the Hirer. Only the hirer (although not the employer in this case) can identify the driver.

The issue is that the employee is the day to day keeper but that is not a recognised term as such. The only realistic way I could see this being handled lawfully would be if Tusker had transferred liability to the Hirer (the employer company). The employer would then have the option to do the appeal or, preferably, give the employee a letter of authority to appeal or deal with the NtH in the company name.

The employee would appeal and would, technically,  be in a winning position because CPM would have failed to provide the copies of the required documents and there could then be no keeper liability. The only fly in that ointment would be after CPM reject the appeal (no doubt about this) is that any IAS appeal is likely to be unsuccessful and that would then leave CPM pestering the employer unless they accepted the letter of authority from the employer for the employee to deal with it.

As I said earlier, there are possible CRA 2015 points that need investigating from the point of view of the employee being under a contract to purchase the vehicle through the salary sacrifice scheme.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #27 on: »
They can't nominate a "driver". They have absolutely no idea who was driving. They can only nominate the Hirer. Only the hirer (although not the employer in this case) can identify the driver.

The issue is that the employee is the day to day keeper but that is not a recognised term as such. The only realistic way I could see this being handled lawfully would be if Tusker had transferred liability to the Hirer (the employer company). The employer would then have the option to do the appeal or, preferably, give the employee a letter of authority to appeal or deal with the NtH in the company name.

The employee would appeal and would, technically,  be in a winning position because CPM would have failed to provide the copies of the required documents and there could then be no keeper liability. The only fly in that ointment would be after CPM reject the appeal (no doubt about this) is that any IAS appeal is likely to be unsuccessful and that would then leave CPM pestering the employer unless they accepted the letter of authority from the employer for the employee to deal with it.

As I said earlier, there are possible CRA 2015 points that need investigating from the point of view of the employee being under a contract to purchase the vehicle through the salary sacrifice scheme.

The employee will not be identifying the driver. The employee will appeal as the hirer with the authorisation letter from Tusker - Am I ok to use the appeal points in the thread? https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/pcn-broadstairs-botany-bay-cpm/msg34623/#msg34623

I`m just conscious of time here just in case the appeal window shuts. Thanks

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #28 on: »
Whatever appeal you like can be used. CPM will never accept ay appeal, no matter what. The IPC are also unlikely to accept any appeal. These are normally won at claim stage where the claim is either struck out, discontinued or actually won at a hearing if it ever gets that far.

In this case, after CPM reject the appeal, there's about a 4% chance of a successful IAS appeal. Once that is rejected, because transfer of liability has not been properly completed, CPM will get back to Tusker with a DRA letter and it will then be up to £170 and the morons at Tusker will simply pay it and charge it back to the employee.

The only way I see this ending is if the employee takes Tusker to court for the amount they have charged them due to their incompetence and failure to follow PoFA for the transfer of liability.

If the employee is a member of a a union or association that provides legal advice or they have Legal Protection cover with their car or household insurance, they had better dust off the terms and get ready to use that.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #29 on: »
I`ve put an appeal forward. Let`s see what they get back with. Ideally, Tusker should try to transfer liability and when the transfer has not been done for whatever reason, they should then give that rejection to the employee.

I don`t understand how come some companies would accept it and some won`t.