3. ParkingEye issued 2 PCNs, £60 paid, POPLA appeal rejected on another
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Re: ParkingEye issued 2 PCNs, £60 paid, POPLA appeal rejected on another
« Reply #15 on: »
Quote from: mickR on July 17, 2024, 10:52:42 am
I think you'll find that option only applies "out of hours" ie after 10pm
the OP was there before that and therefore could not use the overnight option
Quite right - my mistake, was looking at the wrong month in my calendar and thought it was a Sunday!

In which case the remaining argument (aside from any CRA ones as referred to by b789 above) would be that the signage wasn't clear - which I'm not sure is the strongest.
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Re: ParkingEye issued 2 PCNs, £60 paid, POPLA appeal rejected on another
« Reply #16 on: »
Quote from: DWMB2 on July 17, 2024, 12:13:45 pm
In which case the remaining argument (aside from any CRA ones as referred to by b789 above) would be that the signage wasn't clear - which I'm not sure is the strongest.

Thanks much, what about no option to pay later after realizing error and inaccessible zombi-ness if I tried contacting ParkingEye BEFORE receiving PCN.

I am surprised a non-working Parking Machine isn't excuse enough. I mean seriously!

You say other PCN isn't related but the delay in that one reaching me essentially caused the 2nd identitical incident, I suppose no legal standing on this one.
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Re: ParkingEye issued 2 PCNs, £60 paid, POPLA appeal rejected on another
« Reply #17 on: »
Quote from: 8vaibhav on July 17, 2024, 12:19:04 pm
I am surprised a non-working Parking Machine isn't excuse enough. I mean seriously!
The problem is, as has now been established, the signage indicates that during the times you were there, you are only allowed to stay for 2 hours - there is not an option to pay to extend your time beyond this, and if you exceed the maximum stay, you incur a parking charge of £100. Even if the parking machine had been working, you wouldn't have been able to pay anything, as parking was free at the time, but only for up to 2 hours.

 
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Re: ParkingEye issued 2 PCNs, £60 paid, POPLA appeal rejected on another
« Reply #18 on: »
Quote from: DWMB2 on July 17, 2024, 12:39:13 pm
Quote from: 8vaibhav on July 17, 2024, 12:19:04 pm
I am surprised a non-working Parking Machine isn't excuse enough. I mean seriously!
The problem is, as has now been established, the signage indicates that during the times you were there, you are only allowed to stay for 2 hours - there is not an option to pay to extend your time beyond this, and if you exceed the maximum stay, you incur a parking charge of £100. Even if the parking machine had been working, you wouldn't have been able to pay anything, as parking was free at the time, but only for up to 2 hours.

Wait.. What? This is thoroughly confusing, why wouldn't I have been able to pay when I had reasonable idea that I will exceed 2 hours. In fact, while leaving I knew exactly the time I had spent and did spend effort to try and pay on the machine, would have certainly paid if it was working, why do you say I wouldn't have been able to. Sorry, I am so confused.
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Re: ParkingEye issued 2 PCNs, £60 paid, POPLA appeal rejected on another
« Reply #19 on: »
I haven't helped things by wrongly thinking you had parked during the "Overnight Parking" period, so I do apologise for that.

Here's the sign with some mark-up:


Essentially, different rules apply at different times. First:

2 Hours Max stay
During the times indicated (Mon-Sat: 7am-10pm, Sun/Bank Hol: 11am-5pm), parking is free, but drivers may only park for 2 hours or less.

Second:

Tariffs apply outside of these times
If you park outside those times, the 2 hour max stay does not apply, but, there is a tariff to park, which is £15 for up to 9 hours.

Your car was parked from 18:00 to 21:01, on Saturday 16th March. This was during the times indicated on the signage, when the maximum stay was 2 hours. You breached this term by staying for longer than 2 hours, contrary to the advertised terms. Therefore, the following applies:

Failure to comply with the terms & conditions will result in a Parking Charge of: £100

You can seek to argue that the signage doesn't make this clear - the hurdle you will need to overcome is that the bit I have highlighted in red does make fairly clear that between 7am-10pm Monday-Saturday, you may only stay for 2 hours. You could try to argue that "Tariffs apply outside of these times" could be interpreted to mean that tariffs apply if you park longer than 2 hours - whether a judge would agree with that I don't know.
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Re: ParkingEye issued 2 PCNs, £60 paid, POPLA appeal rejected on another
« Reply #20 on: »
WOW!
Thanks so much.

That also explains the "upto 9 hours" bit, 10pm to 7am is indeed 9 hours.
So basically, even if I had paid £15 on the machine or £15.20 on the PayByPhone they would still have sent me this PCN. Basically saying, I just can't park here at all. That is definitely new information for me.

I did try to email Morrisons to get it quashed but they said landlord/ParkingEye manage this.

My cousin lives in this building above Morrisons, essentially only way to avoid is to leave every two-hours and return if I am doing longer stays there. Is that correct?

And now knowing their PCN format, worst case I would deny sharing driver details and try to make these go away like that.

Very useful board, I did try to google earlier but only moneysavingexpert showed up, I am sure the guys there are experts as well but they were discouraging new posts so much that I ended up not asking. Many thanks for all replies from hero users and moderator.

I would wait for now, and hope for the best, having spent so much time understanding this, I will see how far they stretch, if I hear anything after "Final Notice" I will post here for advice. Thanks again.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2024, 01:39:32 pm by 8vaibhav »
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Re: ParkingEye issued 2 PCNs, £60 paid, POPLA appeal rejected on another
« Reply #21 on: »
I suggest you talk to your cousin. If this car park accommodates drivers other than simply Morrisons, whose opening hours are exactly the same as those on the board, then ask them how. If it doesn't, then it's not intended for visitors, it's for customers.

Also, if you have the time I suggest that you read this(skip the debate about penalties and the second case and just read Beavis) and then think whether CRA provides a defence. Their Lordships didn't think so. Para. 107 has clear parallels with your situation and the test of 'fairness' was met because there must clearly be requirement for PE (coincidentally the same company as in your case) to ensure that drivers do not overstay the 2-hour limit because it seems it's a shoppers' car park.

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/uk/cases/UKSC/2015/67.html&query=(Beavis)

And something you've not mentioned is your lease company. It's pretty standard practice for these to charge hirers a fee for their handling costs i.e. challenging PCNs, are you sure they didn't here or wouldn't if they had to deal with others?
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Re: ParkingEye issued 2 PCNs, £60 paid, POPLA appeal rejected on another
« Reply #22 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on July 17, 2024, 02:03:06 pm
I suggest you talk to your cousin. If this car park accommodates drivers other than simply Morrisons, whose opening hours are exactly the same as those on the board, then ask them how. If it doesn't, then it's not intended for visitors, it's for customers.

In retrospect it may just be for customers, my cousin only moved there in 2024 so he maynot even know himself. He assumed it was free.

Quote from: H C Andersen on July 17, 2024, 02:03:06 pm
Also, if you have the time I suggest that you read this(skip the debate about penalties and the second case and just read Beavis) and then think whether CRA provides a defence. Their Lordships didn't think so. Para. 107 has clear parallels with your situation and the test of 'fairness' was met because there must clearly be requirement for PE (coincidentally the same company as in your case) to ensure that drivers do not overstay the 2-hour limit because it seems it's a shoppers' car park.

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/uk/cases/UKSC/2015/67.html&query=(Beavis)
Thanks for sharing, so the courts did rule in favor of ParkingEye, though in this case there is no mention of "Tariffs apply outside these hours" which clearly caused me all the confusion. I can only wonder if that would make any difference.


Quote from: H C Andersen on July 17, 2024, 02:03:06 pm
And something you've not mentioned is your lease company. It's pretty standard practice for these to charge hirers a fee for their handling costs i.e. challenging PCNs, are you sure they didn't here or wouldn't if they had to deal with others?
They have told, they are happy to forward notices such as this for free as much as I understand. This is what they stated at the start of the lease (any admin fee etc would only be charged if they have to do more work than forwarding letters and sharing information.)

If you do get any fines or tickets, these will come through to us first as we are the registered owners of the car. We typically transfer the fines to drivers, who will then have the option to pay or appeal the fine if needs be. If we aren't able to transfer the fine, we may have to pay it on your behalf, and will be in touch if this is the case.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2024, 02:48:01 pm by 8vaibhav »
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Re: ParkingEye issued 2 PCNs, £60 paid, POPLA appeal rejected on another
« Reply #23 on: »
Thanks.

I suggest you read your agreement again because your quoted conditions are pretty standard but not the ones which deal with additional charges.

...and

In retrospect it may just be for customers, my cousin only moved there in 2024 so he maynot even know himself. He assumed it was free.

Sounds a little warning bell...does your cousin have a car and if so do they use this car park and did they remember to change their V5C address with DVLA when they moved? I'd hate to think that they have a pile of unanswered PCNs etc. on a mat where they lived!
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Re: ParkingEye issued 2 PCNs, £60 paid, POPLA appeal rejected on another
« Reply #24 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on July 17, 2024, 04:13:48 pm
Thanks.

I suggest you read your agreement again because your quoted conditions are pretty standard but not the ones which deal with additional charges.

...and

In retrospect it may just be for customers, my cousin only moved there in 2024 so he maynot even know himself. He assumed it was free.

Sounds a little warning bell...does your cousin have a car and if so do they use this car park and did they remember to change their V5C address with DVLA when they moved? I'd hate to think that they have a pile of unanswered PCNs etc. on a mat where they lived!

I have asked them to share the exact letter again but I don't think it's very complicated. Checkout their helppage, says the same thing: https://octopusev.com/help/fines-and-parking-charge-notices

My Cousin doens't have a car, I think doesn't even have a license, so he is safe, his assumption was based on never seeing anyone pay.
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  3. ParkingEye issued 2 PCNs, £60 paid, POPLA appeal rejected on another