Author Topic: Parking ticket for being over line in a disabled space with no additional 1200 width on one side, posts on paving  (Read 1763 times)

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Hi Everyone
I am wheelchair disabled and hence used a disabled parking space at a Next car park Torquay I think owned by council but parking charges ran by private parking firm.
I received a ticket for being slightly out of parking space on line.
I had to do this as to one side of teh parking there is NO additional 1200mm width and there are posts set smack on the border of the disabled parking space, so you cant even open a car door on that side to get in or out of car at all
I had needed to use that side hence unconsciously parked slightly over line to be able to open door slightly for access which was still difficult with posts all along.
I have attached photos of area below, not my car but someone else did exactly teh same as me to try and get access to the left side of their car too, you can see bolder/posts are smack in way of door access and no space for anyone to get in and out of car

Can I argue this disabled space is unlawful and against teh equality act and therefore I should not have to pay the fine as teh disabled space does not meet Inclusive Disability guidelines and therefore unlawful. there are other disabled spots like this too in car park, which I would like to complain and get changed if possible, as im sure im not the only one getting a ticket and have seen others have to park like I did to try and access their access car.

Inclusive Mobility states
8.3 The design of accessible parking spaces: off-street
Designated accessible parking spaces should be located on firm and level
ground.  A designated accessible space should
be a minimum of 4800mm long and 2400mm wide. WHERE THE SPACES ARE
PERPENDICULAR TO THE ACCESS AISLE, AN ADDITIONAL WIDTH OF 1200MM SHOULD BE
PROVIDED ON EACH SIDE. This extra width may be shared with adjacent spaces.
An additional zone of 1200mm should be provided, at the vehicle access end
of the space

thanks very very much for your help !!

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Before we get into any potentially technical arguments about the size of the bays, let's get all the relevant information into play.

Have a thorough read of the following thread, and amend your post accordingly to reflect the guidance in there, and the information requested: READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide

As an aside, looking at the photos, there's an argument to be made that any contravention is de minimis.

As above. Which unregulated private parking company has had the audacity to issue this PCN? Was this a windscreen NtD or just a postal NtH? We need to see both sides of the NtK including all dates. Just redact your personal details, the PCN number and VRN.

Have you tried complaining to Next/landowner?
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Thankyou both of you

It has been issued by premier parking ltd, I think the land is owned by Torbay council.
I have not complained as yet but definitely will be. It is a ridiculous designed car park and some disabled places are in the middle of the car park not even next to the shops so you have to cross the road to get to the path/shops

I did complain to Next but they say they have no say in the car parking. The charge was sent to me by post

Thanks for your time

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It will be interesting if the council do own the land. Some points to note:

1. If the land is owned by the council, that means it falls under their jurisdiction.

2. Is the land under statutory control? This refers to legal regulations and restrictions imposed by local or national authorities. In the case of council owned land, there may be specific rules or agreements governing its use and management.

3. When a private parking company operates on council owned land, they do so under a contract or lease agreement. The council grants the company the right to manage parking enforcement, issue fines/charges, and collect fees. However, the council retains overall ownership and control.

4. Local councils often have specific regulations regarding parking on their land. These regulations may cover matters such as parking duration, fees, and enforcement procedures. It is essential to check the council's website or contact them directly for accurate and up-to-date information.

5. Contact the council's parking services department for clarification.

So, you should find out if the land car park is situated on, is owned by the council and if so, find out who to complain to. If they say it is not owned by them, you can ask them who pays the rates for the location. That will reveal who is the landowner.
 
Find out who is your local councillor and ask for their intervention. You may swell contact your own MP and do the same. Get in touch with your local newspaper and highlight the absurdity of this de-minimis PCN and how the problematic layout leads to entrapment.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2024, 01:35:22 am by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Looks like they do own it, found in news

"Torbay Council paid £21.1million for Wren Park, in Torquay, including purchase costs. But the property was valued at the end of March 2020 at £11.5million, down from £18.1million a year earlier."

Should I complain to parking at council and not bother with Premier parking?

Am I right in law there should be 1200mm either side of the car for access and there fore a penalty charge does not apply as it does not leet teh equality act
thankyou

You haven’t received a “penalty” charge. You’ve received a Parking Charge Notice which is only a speculative invoice from an unregulated private parking company.

You need to find the person responsible for the management of the car park. Possibly some kind of parking services dept. and make a complaint to them about this unfair PCN and ask them to get it cancelled. Send a complaint to your local councillor, if you live within the jurisdiction of that council and copy in whoever is the chief executive of the council.

You shouod expose them to the media.

There may be a case of discrimination under the Equality Act as they have not allowed the necessary adjustment for you to use that car parking space by the restrictions imposed by the bollards. The council, as the landowner are jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents, Premier Parking Ltd.

I hope you are up for a fight on this as it is a typical example of the cowboy methods that these ex-clamper thugs use to extort money.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2024, 01:45:56 am by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Quote
Should I complain to parking at council and not bother with Premier parking?
If you don't get anywhere with the landowner/council/managing agent then in my view you definitely should bother with Premier Parking. If you've not heard back from anyone before Premier's arbitrary appeal deadline then appeal to them - you may wish to compile a draft appeal and share here for comment.

They won't accept, but appealing helps to show you know your stuff, and aren't the easy target they're hoping for.

Having done a bit more research into this, I believe that you have been discriminated against by Torbay Council and Premier Park.

If a landowner fails to provide a fully accessible parking bay, such as an end bay with bollards on one side without the extra 1200mm space recommended by “Inclusive Mobility” in the relevant part of the Equality Act 2010 that may be applicable, is related to disability discrimination.

Equality Act 2010 and Accessibility:

The Equality Act 2010 requires reasonable adjustments to be made to ensure accessibility for disabled individuals in various contexts, including parking facilities.

Disabled Parking Bays and Reasonable Adjustments:

When designing parking bays, landowners must consider the needs of disabled users.

Reasonable adjustments may include:

Providing sufficient space for wheelchair users to access and maneuver.
Ensuring unobstructed access to vehicle doors. Adhering to guidelines on dimensions and placement.

“Inclusive Mobility” Guidelines:

The “Inclusive Mobility” guide provides best practices for accessible pedestrian and transport infrastructure. It recommends that each side of a disabled parking bay should have an extra 1200mm space beyond the standard bay width. This additional space allows for safe door opening and manoeuvring.

Breach of Equality Act:

If a landowner fails to provide the recommended additional space, it should be considered a breach of the Equality Act. Disabled individuals may face difficulties accessing their vehicles or using the parking bay effectively. Such non-compliance constitutes disability discrimination.

In this scenario, scenario where a disabled driver is penalised by an unregulated private parking company due to the landowner’s (Torbay Council) failure to comply with the Inclusive Mobility guidelines of the Equality Act 2010, it is essential to consider the roles and responsibilities of each party:

The Landowner:

The landowner is responsible for providing accessible parking facilities on their property. If the landowner fails to comply with guidelines (such as not providing the recommended additional space in a disabled parking bay), they are indirectly contributing to discrimination against disabled individuals. Their actions (or lack thereof) impacts the accessibility and usability of parking spaces.

Unregulated Private Parking Company (Agent):

The unregulated private parking company acts as an agent on behalf of the landowner. They enforce parking rules and issue charges.

If they penalise a disabled driver unfairly due to inadequate parking facilities (as a result of the landowner’s non-compliance), they are directly involved in discriminatory behavior. Their actions violate the Equality Act 2010 if they penalise someone based on their disability.

Discrimination:

Discrimination occurs both directly (by the parking company) and indirectly (due to the landowner’s failure to provide accessible facilities). The disabled driver is adversely affected by this situation, regardless of whether the discrimination is direct or indirect.

In summary, both the landowner (for inadequate facilities) and the private parking company (for enforcing penalties) play a role in this scenario. The disabled driver’s rights should be protected and any discriminatory actions must be addressed appropriately.

Taking Action:

As you have encountered an inaccessible parking bay which has caused you to be penalised, you must report it to the relevant authorities (e.g., local council or property management). Advocacy and awareness play a crucial role in ensuring that parking facilities meet the necessary standards.



Feel free to put all of this to the council, bringing to their attention that they have breached the Equality Act 2010 by discriminating against you, which is a criminal matter. Both they and their agents are jointly and severally liable for their actions.

In your initial appeal to Premier Parking, use the above information and highlight their discrimination in breach of the Equality Act. Inform them that should they not cancel the PCN, their discrimination goes from “indirect” to “direct” discrimination.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2024, 11:36:28 am by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

OP, why are the photos in post #1 of a blue car and yet the ones embedded in the PCN, presumably yours, of a red car?

I have attached photos of area below, not my car but someone else did exactly teh same as me to try and get access to the left side of their car too, you can see bolder/posts are smack in way of door access and no space for anyone to get in and out of car

You should send an immediate complaint (not an appeal) to Premier Parking highlighting their failure to comply with the BPA CoP section 16. Section 16.5 in particular is breached.

As soon as they have responded, you must file a complaint about them with the BPA for the failure to comply with section 16.1 and 16.5. AS much pressure as possible must be exerted on this abysmal behaviour by this rogue PPC.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

@DWMB2, thanks.

OP, I think you should focus on the PCN.

It seems to comply with PoFA therefore the keeper could be held liable for any overdue parking charge incurred by the driver. It therefore follows that there's no point in withholding the driver's identity, especially when in this case that person holds a BB which was on display.

IMO, you leave complaining until later, and frankly even if the parking charge is cancelled the circumstances might still warrant a complaint. But if you were to, then you would need to be clear about to whom you direct your complaint e.g. you've no idea who is responsible for the layout of the bays, it might or might not be the PPC and you've no idea whether they've brought this design issue to the attention of the landowner or not etc. BPA 16.5 couches its requirement without placing an absolute responsibility upon their member because the BPA doesn't know the scope of every member's authority under their contracts.

The 28-day period for making an appeal ends on 23 May. I would simply say that, as the photos show, there was no substantive breach of the terms and conditions because the purpose of the hatched area is to provide a disabled driver with additional accessible space to park, alight and board their vehicle. The exact subdivision and allocation of space having regard to the position of the car, the BB holder's particular disabilities, size of doors, the arc described by their movement to facilitate egress and access and whether on the driver's or passenger side or rear can only be determined on a case-by-case basis. It would be a foolish parking company which sought to attribute precise limits particularly, as in this case, the bay had a different and more constrained layout from the other disabled bays because of the restriction imposed by the bollards.

While other options are available to me i.e. complaint to the store or landowner or BPA, I have decided to place these on hold while you consider my appeal.

Some thoughts.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2024, 07:32:57 pm by H C Andersen »

Hi I have just received a response from premier parking as below
also complained to council no response yet other than saying to continue to deal with premier
and have copied the formal complaint I made to premier parking

PCN REFERENCE NUMBER:
POPLA CODE:
DATE OF PARKING EVENT: 20th April 2024


PAYMENT DUE DATE:  6th June 2024
TOTAL AMOUNT DUE: £60.00

Dear

Thank you for your appeal against the above Parking Charge Notice (PCN). We have carefully considered your appeal, however on this occasion the appeal has been rejected for the following reason;

Whilst we note the comments and reason for appeal, as per our photographic evidence, the vehicle was parked in contravention of the advertised terms and conditions. As the vehicle was not parked fully within a bay, we can confirm that this PCN has been issued correctly.

Please note, our complaints process can be found on our website.

You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure and therefore you now have two options; you can either pay or appeal to POPLA - you cannot do both:

You can pay the total amount due as shown above via the following payment options;
• Call us on: 01302 513232
• Pay online: www.pcnpayments.com
• Send a postal order: Premier Park Ltd, PO Box 624, Exeter, EX1 9JG

Or, you can appeal to an Independent Appeals Service, POPLA (Parking on Private Land Appeals) using the POPLA reference code provided above. Please note, should you decide to appeal to POPLA and your appeal is subsequently rejected or you withdraw your appeal, the option to pay a discounted amount will no longer be available and the full amount of the PCN will become due. Please note, if you pay the PCN prior to appealing to POPLA, your appeal will be withdrawn as you will have accepted liability in full.

If you decide to appeal to POPLA, you will need to visit their website, www.popla.co.uk where further details of how to appeal (either online or by downloading the relevant forms) can be found. If you are unable to access their website, please call us for further information on how to obtain the forms. Please ensure your POPLA Reference Number, as noted above, is quoted on all correspondence to POPLA. You have 28 days from the date of this email to submit an appeal to POPLA. If you appeal to POPLA we will suspend recovery activity on the PCN and the charge will not increase until the appeal has been determined.

By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services (www.ombudsman-services.org) provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such should you wish to appeal then you must do so to POPLA, as explained above.

If you do not make payment or submit an appeal to POPLA within the relevant timeframe, the outstanding PCN may be passed to our appointed debt collection agency for further action. All costs associated with this process will be added to the amount outstanding.


Premier Park Ltd. PO Box 624, Exeter, Devon, EX1 9JG

13th May 2024

PREMIER PARKING FORMAL COMPLAINt

Re DISABILITY DISCRIMINATION re

I wish to make a formal complaint (not an appeal) to Premier Parking highlighting their failure to comply with the BPA CoP section 16.
Section 16.5 in particular is breached and you have discriminated against me as a disabled person.

TORBAY COUNCIL the landowner fails to provide a fully accessible parking bay, such as an end bay with bollards on one side without the extra 1200mm space recommended by “Inclusive Mobility” in the relevant part of the Equality Act 2010 is related to disability discrimination.

Equality Act 2010 and Accessibility:

The Equality Act 2010 requires reasonable adjustments to be made to ensure accessibility for disabled individuals in various contexts, including parking facilities.

Disabled Parking Bays and Reasonable Adjustments:

When designing parking bays, landowners must consider the needs of disabled users.

Reasonable adjustments may include:

Providing sufficient space for wheelchair users to access and manoeuvre.
Ensuring unobstructed access to vehicle doors. Adhering to guidelines on dimensions and placement.

“Inclusive Mobility” Guidelines:

The “Inclusive Mobility” guide provides best practices for accessible pedestrian and transport infrastructure. It recommends that each side of a disabled parking bay should have an extra 1200mm space beyond the standard bay width. This additional space allows for safe door opening and manoeuvring.

Breach of Equality Act:

Torbay council failed to provide the recommended additional space, it should be considered a breach of the Equality Act. Disabled individuals are facing difficulties accessing their vehicles or using the parking bay effectively. Such non-compliance constitutes disability discrimination.

In this scenario, scenario where a disabled driver is penalised by an unregulated private parking company due to the landowner’s (Torbay Council) failure to comply with the Inclusive Mobility guidelines of the Equality Act 2010, it is essential to consider the roles and responsibilities of each party:

The Landowner:

The landowner is responsible for providing accessible parking facilities on their property. If the landowner fails to comply with guidelines (such as not providing the recommended additional space in a disabled parking bay), they are indirectly contributing to discrimination against disabled individuals. Their actions (or lack thereof) impacts the accessibility and usability of parking spaces.

Unregulated Private Parking Company Premier parking

Premier Parking unregulated private parking company acts as an agent on behalf of the landowner, you enforce parking rules and issue charges.

As you have penalised me as a disabled driver unfairly due to inadequate parking facilities (as a result of the landowner’s non-compliance), you are directly involved in discriminatory behaviour. Your actions violate the Equality Act 2010 when you penalise someone based on their disability.

Discrimination:

Discrimination occurs both directly (by the parking company) and indirectly (due to the landowner’s failure to provide accessible facilities).
I as the disabled driver is adversely affected by this situation, regardless of whether the discrimination is direct or indirect.

In summary, both the landowner (for inadequate facilities) and the private parking company (for enforcing penalties) play a role in this scenario. The disabled driver’s rights should be protected and any discriminatory actions must be addressed appropriately. That address includes redesigning the car park to accessible inclusive standards.

Taking Action:

As I have encountered an inaccessible parking bay which has caused me to be penalised, I am reporting it to Torbay council as they are responsible for ensuring parking facilities meet the required standard.
I note the same bollards are placed again child bays blocking access out of their cars too.


Premier Parkings discrimination in breach of the Equality Act should you not cancel the PCN, means your discrimination goes from “indirect” to “direct” discrimination.

I look forward to a urgent response

Yours Sincerely

thankyou so much again for help much appreciated xxx
« Last Edit: May 24, 2024, 11:02:46 am by DWMB2 »