3. Parking Fine (smart)
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Parking Fine (smart)
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Parking fine

Hi all hiror recieved a parking fine for parking in a loading bay for a site hiror was working in. Followed all procedure of putting hirors reg in system (have photos) the store manager just hasn't updated the parking company with hirors details, this happened before at a different site and hiror posted on pepipoo there was a phrase to describe the situation of you following all correct procedure but the site itself didn't follow up their end. Can't access pepipoo (ips driver system down) so was just wondering if anyone had any idea what they were referring to just to help driver with his appeal. Thanks in advance
« Last Edit: July 16, 2024, 11:50:23 am by Wolves123321 »
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Re: Parking Fine (smart)
« Reply #1 on: »
More info required. Please read the following thread and amend your post to provide as much of the information requested as you are able to: READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide

The first thing to clarify is whether the driver received a parking charge (via a notice placed on the vehicle windscreen), or whether it is actually the keeper or hirer (depending on their relationship to the car) who received a parking charge through the post.

Once we've seen the relevant documents mentioned in the thread above we'll be able to advise on an appeal.
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Re: Parking Fine (smart)
« Reply #2 on: »
Quote from: Wolves123321 on July 16, 2024, 09:05:46 am
Parking fine

Hi all ??? recieved a parking fine for parking in a loading bay
It's an invoice, not a fine, in this case you need to get the difference right in your mind.

Was it left on the vehicle as a notice to driver or sent to the keeper in the post?

Plan A - Talk to the store you were delivering to and ask them to sort it out as it seems to be their failing. (and it would be vehicle details not driver's!)
Plan B - Lets see the PCN, all of it as per the 'Read this BEFORE posting' sticky, you have a Promissory estoppel argument that you were told you could park there, there is also an argument based on Jopson v Homweguard but that's less definitive here.
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Re: Parking Fine (smart)
« Reply #3 on: »
Thanks all, the driver recieved an email from company yesterday. The vehicle is leased so invoice will go to lease company first who then pass it back to Smart to tell them to pass it to drivers company. So unsure when the initial pcn was sent to lease company. Driver parks in loading bay to undertake work. Driver signs in to vehicle registration register which is then passed to store manager who then notifies centre park manager, who is then supposed to notify smart parking (I believe this is where the chain broke) Driver has contacted store who have said they're in an ongoing dispute with centre management and are trying come to a conclusion. Nothing yet. Hope this clears it up, I've attached pcn
 Thank-you

https://ibb.co/Qftv6pz

https://ibb.co/zH4yFyR
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Re: Parking Fine (smart)
« Reply #4 on: »
And who is the notice you have shown us addressed to? It definitely isn't the driver, so it's seemingly either the hire company, or the company by whom the driver is employed?
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Re: Parking Fine (smart)
« Reply #5 on: »
Stop referring to anyone identifiable as "the driver"!!! Is the PCN you've shown us the Notice to Keeper (NtK) that has been forwarded by the lease (lessor) company to the "Hirer" (lessee) or is it the Notice to Hirer (NtH) sent to the Hirer (lessee)?

Aside from any admin fee charged by the lessor, the Hirer cannot be liable for the PCN. Neither the lessor nor (not so) Smart Parking) know who the driver is and it should remain that way. Smart are not allowed to presume nor infer that the Hirer must also be the driver and the Hirer is under no legal obligation to identify the driver.

So, has the Hirer received their NtH yet? If so, the easiest way to get rid of a (not so) Smart Parking PCN is to submit the following appeal (verbatim):

This is an appeal by the Hirer - No driver details will be given. Please do NOT try the usual Group Nexus trick of asking for driver details in order to get around the fact your NtH does not comply with PoFA. As there is no Hirer liability, therefore, liability cannot flow from the driver to the Hirer and so, is an automatic win at POPLA. Please cancel the notice or issue a POPLA code at which point you will auto withdraw.

Smart do not issue PoFA compliant PCNs and so, as long as the drivers identity is not revealed, will always lose at POPLA. Also, Smart never have a valid contract with the landowner to issue PCNs. They make all their money from low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree who know no better.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2024, 10:58:45 am by b789 »
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Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
Re: Parking Fine (smart)
« Reply #6 on: »
The pcn attached is issued to the hirer. The original pcn would have gone to the lessor who then sends it back to Smart telling them to issue it to the lessee which is what you see attached. So should submit that appeal now or wait until the end of the 28 day limit?
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Re: Parking Fine (smart)
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: b789 on July 16, 2024, 10:48:53 am
If so, the easiest way to get rid of a (not so) Smart Parking PCN is to submit the following appeal (verbatim):
I definitely wouldn't submit that verbatim, the name of the parking company needs changing, and it wrongly suggests the appellant is the registered keeper.

Quote
The pcn attached is issued to the hirer.
That hirer being a company? If so, they can submit an amended version of the appeal suggested by b789, or if they wish to be more formal, something along the lines of the below:

Dear Sirs,

We, [COMPANY NAME], have received you Notice to Hirer [(PCN number)] for Vehicle Registration Mark [VRM]. As a body corporate, we cannot have been the driver, and are therefore appealing in our capacity as the vehicle hirer. There is no obligation for us to name the driver at the time and we will not be doing so.

To hold us liable for the charge as the hirer of the vehicle, you must meet the conditions specified in Paragraph 14 of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“the Act”). We note from your correspondence that you have chosen not to do this.

As a result of this, you are unable to recover the specified charge from us, the hirer. As we do not have liability for this charge, we are unable to help you further with this matter. We therefore look forward to your confirmation that the charge has been cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

If the named hirer is an individual rather than a company, let us know.
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Re: Parking Fine (smart)
« Reply #8 on: »
So EDIT your first post to make it clear the keeper has received it, no-one else.

It is highly likely the keeper has no liability whether or not the driver does, so no point telling them who was driving!
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Re: Parking Fine (smart)
« Reply #9 on: »
Quote from: Wolves123321 on July 16, 2024, 10:52:55 am
The pcn attached is issued to the hirer. The original pcn would have gone to the lessor who then sends it back to Smart telling them to issue it to the lessee which is what you see attached. So should submit that appeal now or wait until the end of the 28 day limit?

Only the person or entity named on the PCN can appeal. Neither the PPC nor the lease company know who the driver is. How could they, unless the Hirer blabs it, inadvertently or otherwise?

So, the PPC sends NtK to lessor. Lessor transfers liability to the lessee. PPC sends NtH to lessee. Lessee appeals the PCN as it is now in their name.

So, is the PCN you've shown us the NtK that was sent to the lessor but has since been forwarded to the lessee as part of the transfer of liability process or is it the NtH addressed to the lessee? It's still not clear from what you've told us.

Unless it is in the lessees name, it can't be appealed.
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Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
Re: Parking Fine (smart)
« Reply #10 on: »
Quote from: b789 on July 16, 2024, 11:04:39 am
Quote from: Wolves123321 on July 16, 2024, 10:52:55 am
The pcn attached is issued to the hirer. The original pcn would have gone to the lessor who then sends it back to Smart telling them to issue it to the lessee which is what you see attached. So should submit that appeal now or wait until the end of the 28 day limit?

Only the person or entity named on the PCN can appeal. Neither the PPC nor the lease company know who the driver is. How could they, unless the Hirer blabs it, inadvertently or otherwise?

So, the PPC sends NtK to lessor. Lessor transfers liability to the lessee. PPC sends NtH to lessee. Lessee appeals the PCN as it is now in their name.

So, is the PCN you've shown us the NtK that was sent to the lessor but has since been forwarded to the lessee as part of the transfer of liability process or is it the NtH addressed to the lessee? It's still not clear from what you've told us.

Unless it is in the lessees name, it can't be appealed.
It is addressed to the lessee, the lessor told them to reissue it to the lessee, can an individual appeal it on behalf of the lessee? As the handbook states it has to be dealt with by a certain individual
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Re: Parking Fine (smart)
« Reply #11 on: »
Quote from: Wolves123321 on July 16, 2024, 11:52:44 am
As the handbook states it has to be dealt with by a certain individual
What's "the handbook"?

Whoever is named on the notice is the entity that Smart Parking is pursuing - any appeal must come from that entity, not some third party. If the entity named is a company, it is the company that must respond.
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Re: Parking Fine (smart)
« Reply #12 on: »
So if it is addressed to a company rather than an individual, it should be responded to by someone authorised by the company to do so. Typically someone in a managerial or administrative role who has the authority to act on behalf of the company. Are you authorised to do so?

However, as it is not PoFA compliant, you could simply respond as "the company" and tell Smart to go swivel as per the suggested appeal responses. The company is the Hirer and there is no legal obligation for the company/Hirer to name the driver.
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Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
Re: Parking Fine (smart)
« Reply #13 on: »
Quote from: The Rookie on July 16, 2024, 09:20:20 am
Plan A - Talk to the store you were delivering to and ask them to sort it out as it seems to be their failing. (and it would be vehicle details not driver's!)
Meantime....
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There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!
Re: Parking Fine (smart)
« Reply #14 on: »
Quote from: b789 on July 16, 2024, 12:06:32 pm
So if it is addressed to a company rather than an individual, it should be responded to by someone authorised by the company to do so. Typically someone in a managerial or administrative role who has the authority to act on behalf of the company. Are you authorised to do so?

However, as it is not PoFA compliant, you could simply respond as "the company" and tell Smart to go swivel as per the suggested appeal responses. The company is the Hirer and there is no legal obligation for the company/Hirer to name the driver.
OK thank-you so if I send this:
Dear Sirs,

We, [COMPANY NAME], have received you Notice to Hirer [(PCN number)] for Vehicle Registration Mark [VRM]. As a body corporate, we cannot have been the driver, and are therefore appealing in our capacity as the vehicle hirer. There is no obligation for us to name the driver at the time and we will not be doing so.

To hold us liable for the charge as the hirer of the vehicle, you must meet the conditions specified in Paragraph 14 of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“the Act”). We note from your correspondence that you have chosen not to do this.

As a result of this, you are unable to recover the specified charge from us, the hirer. As we do not have liability for this charge, we are unable to help you further with this matter. We therefore look forward to your confirmation that the charge has been cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

If they reject for whatever reason do I then request a popla code?
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