Author Topic: Euro Parking County court letter  (Read 4751 times)

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Euro Parking County court letter
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I received the attached County Court claim form today for parking in a location for 19 minutes. It's not a car park and it was from 22.38 pm until 22.57 pm I was unaware that I could not park there as I could not see any signs at night. I did check after I received the fine in the post and they do have signs saying it's a private car park.

I need to fill in the claim form and put up a case to fight the claim.

What is the best way forward?

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Re: Euro Parking County court letter
« Reply #1 on: »
I need to fill in the claim form and put up a case to fight the claim.
Before we get into any of the details of the case - it's usually advised not to fill in the paper forms that you have been sent, but to instead conduct the process online, using the 'MCOL' system. There's a guide to that and the whole court process on the MSE Forum, see this link: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/64350585/#Comment_64350585 If you haven't been to court before I'd advise reading it thoroughly.

What is the best way forward?
On what grounds are you planning to run your defence?

To offer any detailed advice we could do with some more info, including:
  • A copy of the original PCN, and any appeal(s) you submitted, alongside their responses
  • Photographs of the signage at the site - ideally some closeup showing the contents, and some showing the layout, and whether or not they were 'there to be seen', well-placed or otherwise
  • A Google Street View link to whereabouts the vehicle was parked, if available

Re: Euro Parking County court letter
« Reply #2 on: »
Thanks for the reply@DWMB2

I have attached the original PCN and I haven't been in touch with them at all so nothing else to add in terms of responses.

I have attached some more images of the area including the signs  - https://imgur.com/a/Ftqhm1x

It was nighttime when I was parked there and I could not see the signs as the lighting was not great. My car was facing the road and therefore I did not see any signage about parking there. I have parked there in the past and not had a fine so I think this is a new measure they have taken.

I had to park there in haste because my mother had taken a fall whilst walking up steps at night and as I'm her main driver I came to collect her and had displayed her disabled badge thinking it would be OK.

Here is the Google link - https://www.google.com/maps/place/Shelter+Furniture+Shop/@52.5167494,-1.9943832,3a,75y,53.15h,77.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgk2Y91qnkUTKFEQQNpY-uA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m15!1m8!3m7!1s0x48709802502e27e3:0x91ce427b3455bbc5!2sKings+Square+Shopping+Centre!8m2!3d52.51719!4d-1.9932703!10e5!16s%2Fg%2F1hc7nn3dd!3m5!1s0x48709802502e27e3:0x11fca1d01122cbb!8m2!3d52.5170092!4d-1.9940263!16s%2Fg%2F11b6hz0klz?entry=ttu
« Last Edit: October 16, 2023, 10:33:31 pm by BigPoppa »

Re: Euro Parking County court letter
« Reply #3 on: »
For a private parking "penalty" to be enforceable, it would have to be liquidated damages specified in a contract - usually formed by an offer of some valuable right (e.g. the right to park) in exchange for some valuable consideration from the driver. The offer would generally be communicated by adequate signage and accepted by parking and allowing the car to remain parked beyond a reasonable time necessary to read the offer and decide whether or not to accept it. A £100 charge would need to be commercially justified, and displayed prominently as it would be an onerous clause.

From GSV in bright daylight, the signs are "there to be seen" (in bright daylight). I am not convinced that the onerous charge for breach is particularly conspicuous, but IMHO the biggest issue is that the signage is "forbidding" - it does not offer any right to park to any group of which you are a member, so there can be no contract.

The other obvious issue is "keeper liability" - has the PPC complied with the requirements to hold the keeper liable for any debt owed by the unidentified driver? As DWMB2 has said, to determine this, we would need to see both sides of the actual Notice to Keeper (or first PCN).
Personally, I wouldn't want to have to rely solely on a defence of "prove it was me driving" in a civil case (on the balance of probabilities).
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

Re: Euro Parking County court letter
« Reply #4 on: »
Thanks @andy_foster

Here is the other side of the PCN.

Let me know if you need anything else.

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Re: Euro Parking County court letter
« Reply #5 on: »


The statutory warning is found in para. 4(4) of Sch. 4 to PoFA, not 14 as the notice to keeper states. This may be considered a typo. However, IMO no such leeway should be given as regards the statutory warning. 

PoFA requires this warning to be given in a NTK, and in this case it is not. The statutory period which must elapse before this right [to enforce against the keeper] may be exercised by the creditor is 28 days beginning on the day after that on which the notice is given, NOT 21 days as stated in the NTK.


Re: Euro Parking County court letter
« Reply #6 on: »


The statutory warning is found in para. 4(4) of Sch. 4 to PoFA, not 14 as the notice to keeper states. This may be considered a typo. However, IMO no such leeway should be given as regards the statutory warning. 

PoFA requires this warning to be given in a NTK, and in this case it is not. The statutory period which must elapse before this right [to enforce against the keeper] may be exercised by the creditor is 28 days beginning on the day after that on which the notice is given, NOT 21 days as stated in the NTK.

Thanks, @H C Andersen can you help me draft a defence response?

Re: Euro Parking County court letter
« Reply #7 on: »
Are there any other points I should be thinking about?

Thanks.

Re: Euro Parking County court letter
« Reply #8 on: »
Looking on Google Street View and your images, the signage isn't brilliant, and might not be the most visible at night - although the entrance sign looks reasonably prominent, which might not help you - you'd need to make a convincing argument that it was not visible from the angle you entered.

I think the main point you've got in your favour is as outlined by andy_foster, that the signage is forbidding and therefore unable to create a contract.

Re: Euro Parking County court letter
« Reply #9 on: »
Thanks @DWMB2

I have filled out MCOL today, how to acknowledge service ('AOS') Does this mean that I have until 17/11 to reply since the date of the claim form is 12/10?

I will draft a defense and upload it here for you guys to have a read.

Re: Euro Parking County court letter
« Reply #10 on: »
Hi All,

I have drafted the below response -

In the Matter of a Parking Charge Notice on Private Land

Dear Sir/Madam,

I write to formally challenge the parking invoice issued to the driver, herein referred to as the 'Notice,' in relation to the parking incident that occurred on 20/12/22 at Kings Square Shopping Centre, West Bromwich. I assert that this Notice is a matter of contract law, and I contend that no valid contract was established with the driver for the following reasons:

Ambiguity in Signage:
On the date and time of the Notice (22:57 PM), the signage present on the site was inadequately illuminated and not clearly visible to the driver. The driver's vehicle was parked facing the road where no signs were displayed, which further hindered their ability to perceive the signage.

Lack of Signage Awareness:
The driver did not have a reasonable opportunity to observe or comprehend the signage when entering the car park due to its obscured visibility and the angle from which the driver entered.

Absence of Road Markings:
Even during daylight hours, the area where the driver parked lacked both signage and road markings, offering no indication of parking regulations.

Ownership Discrepancies:
There is legitimate doubt regarding the ownership of the land in question, and it is not established that it is owned by the purported parties.

Forbidding Nature of Signage:
The signage at the site unequivocally forbids parking vehicles without a valid permit. It does not extend an invitation to park under any terms, but rather strictly limits parking to permit holders. As such, the terms imposed by the signage cannot apply to vehicles without a permit.

In support of my position, I refer you to relevant case law, notably PCM-UK v Bull et al [B4GF17X2 - 2016], UKPC v Masterson [B4GF26K6 - 2016], and Horizon Parking v Mr. J [C5GF17X2 - 2016]. In these cases, the signage was determined to be forbidding in nature, resulting in a finding of trespass rather than a contractual breach. This establishes that no contractual relationship existed with the driver.

Furthermore, the information provided in the Notice to Keeper which PoFA mandates is grossly incorrect, as the statutory warning is found in paragraph 4(4) of Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA), not in paragraph 14 as stated in the Notice to Keeper. PoFA mandates that this warning be included in a Notice to Keeper, and in this case, it has not been properly provided. It is essential to note that the statutory period within which the right to enforce against the keeper may be exercised by the creditor is 28 days, commencing from the day following the notice's issuance. Contrary to the 21-day period indicated in the Notice to Keeper, PoFA prescribes a 28-day timeframe.

I have attached photographic evidence depicting the poor visibility of the signage and the absence of road markings, further substantiating my claims.

Additionally, it is a fundamental principle of common law that third parties cannot confer rights or impose obligations upon individuals who are not parties to a contract. In this matter, there was no valid contract established with the driver.

I kindly request the utilisation of impartial and qualified assessors who adhere to legal and equitable standards. I implore you to consider this appeal and refrain from pursuing any further demands on the invoice, as this ongoing matter is causing me undue stress and distress.

I trust that you will conduct a thorough and fair assessment of the facts presented and act in accordance with the principles of law and justice.

Yours faithfully,


How does this read? Does anyone know when the defense needs to be in by?  @DWMB2 @H C Andersen @andy_foster


Re: Euro Parking County court letter
« Reply #11 on: »
Hi I'm just pushing this one back up as I have not had any comments on the letter or when the defence needs to be in by.

I hope someone can reply.

Re: Euro Parking County court letter
« Reply #12 on: »
I'm not sure what the 'letter' you're talking about is for?

Your aim now is to draft a defence. If you haven't already, you should find other examples of successful defences on the PePiPoo and MSE Forums, and the MSE guide to the court process here https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/64350585/#Comment_64350585

The deadline for your defence is 28 days from the date of service of the claim, which is the fifth day after the date of issue.

I wouldn't recommend waiting until the last minute, in case there are technical issues.

Re: Euro Parking County court letter
« Reply #13 on: »
Thanks @DWMB2

I'm not sure if you saw this is my defence here? -

I have drafted the below response -

In the Matter of a Parking Charge Notice on Private Land

Dear Sir/Madam,

I write to formally challenge the parking invoice issued to the driver, herein referred to as the 'Notice,' in relation to the parking incident that occurred on 20/12/22 at Kings Square Shopping Centre, West Bromwich. I assert that this Notice is a matter of contract law, and I contend that no valid contract was established with the driver for the following reasons:

Ambiguity in Signage:
On the date and time of the Notice (22:57 PM), the signage present on the site was inadequately illuminated and not clearly visible to the driver. The driver's vehicle was parked facing the road where no signs were displayed, which further hindered their ability to perceive the signage.

Lack of Signage Awareness:
The driver did not have a reasonable opportunity to observe or comprehend the signage when entering the car park due to its obscured visibility and the angle from which the driver entered.

Absence of Road Markings:
Even during daylight hours, the area where the driver parked lacked both signage and road markings, offering no indication of parking regulations.

Ownership Discrepancies:
There is legitimate doubt regarding the ownership of the land in question, and it is not established that it is owned by the purported parties.

Forbidding Nature of Signage:
The signage at the site unequivocally forbids parking vehicles without a valid permit. It does not extend an invitation to park under any terms, but rather strictly limits parking to permit holders. As such, the terms imposed by the signage cannot apply to vehicles without a permit.

In support of my position, I refer you to relevant case law, notably PCM-UK v Bull et al [B4GF17X2 - 2016], UKPC v Masterson [B4GF26K6 - 2016], and Horizon Parking v Mr. J [C5GF17X2 - 2016]. In these cases, the signage was determined to be forbidding in nature, resulting in a finding of trespass rather than a contractual breach. This establishes that no contractual relationship existed with the driver.

Furthermore, the information provided in the Notice to Keeper which PoFA mandates is grossly incorrect, as the statutory warning is found in paragraph 4(4) of Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA), not in paragraph 14 as stated in the Notice to Keeper. PoFA mandates that this warning be included in a Notice to Keeper, and in this case, it has not been properly provided. It is essential to note that the statutory period within which the right to enforce against the keeper may be exercised by the creditor is 28 days, commencing from the day following the notice's issuance. Contrary to the 21-day period indicated in the Notice to Keeper, PoFA prescribes a 28-day timeframe.

I have attached photographic evidence depicting the poor visibility of the signage and the absence of road markings, further substantiating my claims.

Additionally, it is a fundamental principle of common law that third parties cannot confer rights or impose obligations upon individuals who are not parties to a contract. In this matter, there was no valid contract established with the driver.

I kindly request the utilisation of impartial and qualified assessors who adhere to legal and equitable standards. I implore you to consider this appeal and refrain from pursuing any further demands on the invoice, as this ongoing matter is causing me undue stress and distress.

I trust that you will conduct a thorough and fair assessment of the facts presented and act in accordance with the principles of law and justice.

Yours faithfully,
 

Re: Euro Parking County court letter
« Reply #14 on: »
That reads more like a letter than a defence, see my post above about looking at other examples.