Author Topic: Euro Car Parks - Payment did not cover duration of stay but machine wouldn't let the driver pay more  (Read 2328 times)

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Okay will do! One last thing, can I still use the argument that An invitation for the keeper to pay the charge was not given? Also is this the same as lack of prominence of the charge for breaching the terms?

An invitation for the keeper to pay the charge (which would seem to be somewhat implicit on an NtK asking the keeper to pay the charge) is part of the requirement under PoFA 2012 to hold the keeper vicariously liable when they do not know the identity of the driver. If they know the identity of the driver, PoFA 2012 is irrelevant as far as any legal claim against the driver is concerned.
Whether POPLA would uphold an appeal on such a ground might be a different matter though.

Making an onerous term prominent as a requirement of the common law for enforcing such terms as well as being a requirement of a CoP. This has nothing to do with whether or not you have blabbed about who was driving - this goes to the enforceablility of the term at law.

I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

"Making an onerous term prominent as a requirement of the common law for enforcing such terms as well as being a requirement of a CoP"

Is any of this worth adding in my appeal and if so how does it apply to my case?

Also sorry to ask, but what does NtK stand for?

An NtK is the 'Notice to Keeper' that was sent to you as the Parking Charge Notice (PCN).
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Hi there everyone. Please find below an initial draft of my appeal. Points addressed as ?? are additional purposed points and therefore have no been developed. If you believe any of these have the potential to be useful please let me know and I will develop them. Thank you all for what you have already offered, I am beyond grateful.

"APPEAL: POPLA REFERENCE: 2411454240
Euro Car Parks NtK
Date of issue: 22/04/2024
VEHICLE REG: VU71FYJ
Accused Breach of Terms and Conditions: Your payment or validation did not cover the duration of stay

I am the registered Keeper of the above vehicle and I am appealing against above charge. I propose that this has been issued incorrectly and have evidence to prove this. I contend that I am not liable for the parking charge on the following grounds and would ask that they are all considered. EURO CAR PARKS failed to display the correct time upon payment, within their NtK there is no invitation to the keeper to pay the charge, they have not provided evidence of landowner authority and the signage fails to meet the required British Parking Association standards.

1. On the date in question, when the driver used the payment system provided, Euro Car Parks system failed to display the correct time. As you can clearly see from *evidence of reciept* the *START TIME OF PARKING SESSION* is time stamped at 10:38pm which is a direct contradiction of the vehicle time arrival Euro Car Parks have claimed in their initial response to my appeal. Variously the PPC is in breach of an implied term of the contract (that the machine will accept the required payment) and trying to hold the driver liable for their failure and/or that the contract was frustrated by the failure of their machine.

2. There are also failures in their NtK that prevents them from transferring the liability from the driver to the the keeper due to no invitation to the keeper to pay the charge as required by the strict provisions of PoFA 9(2)(e)(i). As that requirement is missing, the NtK is not fully compliant with the requirements of PoFA and they cannot transfer liability from the driver to the keeper.

3. The operator in question has not provided evidence of landowner authority. *WHAT EVIDENCE DO I NEED TO REFERENCE HERE?* Therefore the burden of proof lies on the operator EURO CAR PARKS to prove that they do have that authority.

4. The signage at the car park was not compliant with the British Parking Association standards and there was no valid contract between the parking company and the driver. Following receipt of the charge, I have personally visited the site in question. I believe the signs and any core parking terms that the parking company are relying upon do not offer sufficient customer support. The Operator needs to show evidence of support in the event of system errors - specifically providing a contact support that could adepately address and error such as system errors. Please refer to *EVIDENCE OF SIGNAGE FOR PARKING TERMS AND CONDITIONS* to see that no offer or support or contact is provided if any errors or failures in their systems occur. The number provided on their PAYMENT RECEIPT *cite evidence of reciept* and on their signage does not provide an option to speak to an operator or even leave a message so EURO CAR PARKS have failed to provide adequate support for customers. Their signage also states 'PLEASE VSIIT THE PAY STATION TO PAY FOR PARKING BEFORE RETURNING TO YOUR VEHICLE'. I believe the signs failed to properly and clearly warn/inform the driver of the terms in this car park as they failed to comply with the BPA Code of Practice appendix B. The driver followed these instructions and therefor forfilled the terms and conditions set out thus invalidating the NtK in question. I require the operator to provide photographic evidence that proves otherwise.

??. Planning consent is required for car parks and have conditions that grant permission as the car park provides a service to the community. To bring in time limits, charges and ANPR cameras, planning consent is required for this variation. I have no evidence that planning consent was obtained for this change and I put the parking company to strict proof to provide evidence that there is planning consent to cover the current parking conditions and chargeable regime in this car park. In view of this, and the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice section 7 that demands that valid contract with mandatory clauses specifying the extent of the parking company’s authority, I require the parking company to produce a copy of the contract with the landowner that shows POPLA that they do, indeed have such authority.

??. Neither the parking company or their client has proved that they have planning consent to charge motorists for any alleged contravention.

??. The parking company has no contract with the landowner that permits them to levy charges on motorists up to pursuit of these charges through the courts.

This concludes my appeal.

Thank you for your consideration."


Any and all critique massively appreciated

Point #1 is your strongest, and yet is only very briefly outlined. I think you need to make this point much clearer. It's not clear from reading that draft, for example, that payment only needs to be made before leaving (rather than a car park that requires payment in advance), or that the machine is supposed to calculate the vehicle's stay automatically, with the driver not being presented with any option to amend the tariff being demanded in order to pay the 'correct' amount.

How is this for a revision of point 1?

"1. On the date in question, when the driver used the payment system provided, Euro Car Parks system failed to display the correct time. As stated in EURO CAR PARKS NtK and SIGNAGE EVIDENCE, payment (stated as 'pay on foot') only needs to be made BEFORE leaving the car park (rather than a car park which requires payment in advance). The operators car park is supposed to calculate the vehicles's total stay automatically. As you can clearly see from *evidence of reciept* the *START TIME OF PARKING SESSION* is time stamped at 10:38pm which is a direct contradiction of the vehicle time arrival of 17:55:41 Euro Car Parks have provided through ANPR *add evidence here*. After being presented a time of 10:38pm via the operators payment machine, the driver was not presented with any option to amend the tariff being demanded in order to pay the 'correct' amount. The number provided by EURO CAR PARKS 'for any enquiry' as quotes from the payment receipt and signage played an automated message which at the time of writing this still offers no way to speak to any employee nor file a concern.

Furthermore, upon further investigation it appears that both the car park used by the driver 'Five Ways Car Park - Tennant Street' and the adjacent car park also operated by EURO CAR PARK, the suspiciously similar named '5 Ways Car Park' have been subject to suspicious malfunctions in their operating system. Several users have reported ticket machines displaying false times for drivers upon attempting to pay with no option of being able to amend this payment. There is a clear breach of interest a negligence shown from this operator which I believe should absolve the driver of all liability. Please refer to the evidence provided below. Variously the PPC is in breach of an implied term of the contract (that the machine will accept the required payment) and trying to hold the driver liable for their failure and/or that the contract was frustrated by the failure of their machine."



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Try and simplify matters by focusing on the key matters and leaving out the nonsense about planning etc. Sorry, but it's a waste of time.

As can be seen from Exhibit 1, *** car park is a Pay on Exit car park which operates in the following manner:

  Car enters car park and VRM and time of entry are recorded automatically.

  On leaving, the driver is required to enter their VRM and the system then   calculates and demands payment which is displayed on a screen;

  On payment of the sum demanded the barriers rise and the vehicle may exit.

There is no input required from the driver other than to enter their VRM and no changes or variations to the sum demanded are possible even if the driver wanted to do so.

While a tariff board is displayed, this is for information only as regards the driver who is obliged to pay the sum calculated by the check-out system and is not free to calculate their own estimate of product of their parking period and the respective tariff.

The circumstances of this case are that on exit the driver entered their correct VRM(which is not disputed by the creditor) and paid the sum demanded by the creditor's system, and therefore the creditor(again, this point is not disputed by the creditor).

Subsequently, the keeper received a PCN which alleged that the driver did not pay the correct tariff for their period on site because their system wrongly calculated what was due. The specific times and tariffs are contained in the creditor's evidence, but the issue is not one of details but of principle and accountability.

In a nutshell, the creditor is trying to seek payment of a parking charge in respect of their(their system's) failure. I submit that as a matter of law, common-sense and fairness this claim must be rejected.

Or something similar.
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Wow. Thank you, reading this through I definitely prefer the no nonsense approach. Does this all serve as just for my main point? Would you recommend I still include my other arguments or would your suggestions suffice?

I am the registered Keeper of the above vehicle and I am appealing against above charge. I propose that this has been issued incorrectly and have evidence to prove this. I contend that I am not liable for the parking charge on the following grounds and would ask that they are all considered. EURO CAR PARKS failed to display the correct time upon payment, within their NtK there is no invitation to the keeper to pay the charge, they have not provided evidence of landowner authority and the signage fails to meet the required British Parking Association standards.

2. There are also failures in their NtK that prevents them from transferring the liability from the driver to the the keeper due to no invitation to the keeper to pay the charge as required by the strict provisions of PoFA 9(2)(e)(i). As that requirement is missing, the NtK is not fully compliant with the requirements of PoFA and they cannot transfer liability from the driver to the keeper.

As already discussed, you said admitted to being the driver in your initial appeal. Therefore, there is no point in referencing PoFA or keeper liability. The driver is always liable and you have admitted to being the driver.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

I want to thank everyone here for their selfless input into my appeal. My final idea is to include more on 'No Evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice'

This links to the fact that the number given by the operator was only an automated message with no option to speak to anyone for assistance and no other support was offered.

Could anyone please give guidance on how I may bolster this argument with a 'no nonsense' approach?

Thank you all once again

If you want to cover these points, then IMO consolidate them with a short intro sentence such as..

In addition to those matters upon which the assessor must satisfy themselves as regards the creditor's compliance with their ATA's Code of Practice e.g. landowner authority etc, before considering the substantive points of the creditor's claim, I am appealing on the following points...

I don't like this 'put to strict proof..' because IMO it's unnecessary, you do not need to raise matters upon which the assessor must be satisfied in this way BEFORE progressing to substantive matters as regards the creditor's claim. But it's a personal thing!

By putting this in you make it clear that you are entitled to examine the creditor's evidence in this regard(not that without it you wouldn't).

I don't like this 'put to strict proof..' because IMO it's unnecessary, you do not need to raise matters upon which the assessor must be satisfied in this way BEFORE progressing to substantive matters as regards the creditor's claim. But it's a personal thing!
Except often, if you don't raise a matter explicitly, the assessor won't consider it (whether they should is another matter, but one that is rather immaterial if they don't). That said, any of these 'kitchen sink' type points should be made last, after any more substantive/meritorious matters specific to the case in question.

We'll have to disagree on this.

It's not 'kitchen sink', IMO it's fundamental to a creditor's legal standing to bring a claim. It cannot be something which an assessor can overlook, not if they're doing their job correctly. Just as a traffic order, service of a PCN and NTO are essential conditions of a council's claim - before one considers what they contain and allege- so it should be, and I believe is, with IAS. 

OP, you have different views: IMO, it's front and centre whereas others differ.

Make sure it's in somewhere.

We'll have to disagree on this.
I'm not sure we're disagreeing - I'd read your post as suggesting that you don't bother raising issues like landowner authority in detail at all, and instead replace them with the single sentence you were proposing. If you're saying that you should make all those points in detail, but preface them with that sentence, then that's fine.

I would however stand by my point that in this case, the OP should lead with the point around the machine being faulty.

(My use of the term 'kitchen sink' was deliberately flippant; I'm in favour of including any points that might win, but leading with the strongest/most meritorious, which in this case, is the dodgy machine)