Author Topic: Euro Car Parks - Payment did not cover duration of stay but machine wouldn't let the driver pay more  (Read 2318 times)

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I absolutely see both of you points and I feel that it would be to leave less substantial points towards the end of my appeal. That being said, besides the operators failure to display the correct time upon do I actually have any other meritorious points? (In your opinion)

Honestly I am so annoyed I rushed into my initial appeal and identified the driver. Life lesson I guess.

That being said, besides the operators failure to display the correct time upon do I actually have any other meritorious points? (In your opinion)
All the points mentioned so far are worth including. I'd say the machine not working is the strongest specific to the case, as it was entirely outside your control, and an error on their part, that you have evidence to support (include this in the appeal).

Is this important... looking at my PCN again the address on the back is DIFFERENT to the address on Google Maps. My PCN has the address as 60 Bishopsgate street, fiveways, Birmingham B15 1DB. Turns out they've used the address for the car park OPPOSITE the one I parked in. The address according to Google for the car park I used is Tennant St, Birmingham B15 1DA. Before you ask, yes I paid for parking in the correct car park. Both are operated by Euro Car Parks. Does this help my case?

Nevermind, I think that they both must operate under the same address as my receipt also has that address.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2024, 04:21:42 pm by Harmonyguru »

The address on the NtK is important because it must be accurate enough to identify the relevant land. Any ambiguity is an appeal point and also a defence point in that, an address that does not identify the relevant land, renders the NtK non-compliant with PoFA and so there can be no keeper liability.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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Is it worth me adding the screenshots of similarly damning reviews of the car park that I sent previously or is this unnecessary? They are both taken from car parks operated by Euro Car Parks

See earlier post for images.

I wouldn't. Focus on hard evidence, rather than the unverifiable opinions of others.

Okay, here it is. A link to my appeal. I apologise in advance to @b789 for choosing to keep in the 'no invitation to the keeper'. I just felt like if there was any chance something might get missed or the slightest chance POPLA still see it as noteworthy it would be worth keeping. Plus with the ambiguity of the address it helps to bolster this argument.

Note I have NOT sent this. I am still waiting to hear from the landowners in the hope I can have the charge removed.


POPLA APPEAL DRAFT

No such thing as bad criticism so don't be shy.

If you have already told Euro Car Parks that you were the driver when you originally appealed then PoFA and keeper liability are irrelevant.

Including it serves only to distract from your relevant points, in my view.

Without scouring back through the thread, if the driver was identified, inadvertently or otherwise, then there is no point mentioning no keeper liability because the driver is always liable.

You can only invoke no keeper liability if the drivers identity remains unknown to the PPC.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Thank you @b789 and @DWMB2 it sounds like the consensus is to drop this point. Do I still include the point that the addresses on the NTK don't match the address of the parking location or is this also nullified by identifying the diver?

Anything that you are relying on to try and invoke no keeper liability due to non-compliance with PoFA is not going to work because the driver is already identified.

The fact that the address on the NtK does not match the location where the alleged breach of contract occurred should be argued on the basis of a breach of the ATA CoP that the PPC belongs to.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Anything that you are relying on to try and invoke no keeper liability due to non-compliance with PoFA is not going to work because the driver is already identified.

The fact that the address on the NtK does not match the location where the alleged breach of contract occurred should be argued on the basis of a breach of the ATA CoP that the PPC belongs to.

I cannot find anything on ATA CoP. If Euro Car Parks are a member of the British Parking Associations Approved Operators Scheme (AOS) then can I just reference the BPA CoP, specifically clause 21.12 relating to POFA 9(2)(a)?

You cannot rely on PoFA if you have identified yourself to be the driver. If the driver is known, PoFA is irrelevant (at this stage).

If this ever got to court, you could rely on PoFA 4(5) because the claim would be for more than the original £100 which is an abuse of process. However, we are nowhere near that stage, if ever.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

OP, a quick skip through relevant law.

You posted: I do not have a copy as it was sent via Euro Car Parks website, I made this appeal the same day I received the letter. In this appeal, I did identify myself as the driver.

So, the NTK is now redundant as far as being a statutory notice but not as regards conveying the particulars of the creditor's claim for which there is no prescribed format as regards a claim against a driver for breach of contract.

Why?

Because a NTK is a creation of Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 whose sole objective is to regulate how creditors may kick into touch the centuries-old legal principle that only the parties to a contract have rights and responsibilities under that contract by allowing the creditor to hold the keeper/hirer liable for breaches in lieu.

You do not fall into this category - because you have identified yourself as the liable party to the contract(AKA the driver) therefore it is a straightforward issue of whether the driver is liable to pay a parking charge to the creditor for breaching the terms of contract by which they were deemed bound by entering and parking on this private land. It is a matter pure and simple of contract law and POPLA's remit.

Of course there is common ground between PoFA and contract law, there's bound to be. But don't be fooled into thinking that aspects which are common fall to be considered under PoFA, they don't. 

So, what were the terms of the contract into which you entered, was there a breach etc? These are the issues for POPLA.

But why POPLA you may ask if PoFA doesn't apply?

Because members of the BPA's AOS have signed up to this and the Code of Practice by virtue of their membership.

And as regards bp's assertion that the level of charge is an abuse of process, IMO this is not correct as each case turns on its own facts. However, it could be argued to be but IMO the issue at large is what additional charges if any could a creditor add to their claim while simply pursuing the driver for a breach of contract...the answer to which would require a detailed examination of the terms of that specific contract e.g. their clarity, fairness etc.

Is my view.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2024, 01:42:41 pm by H C Andersen »
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Okay, here it is. A link to my appeal. I apologise in advance to @b789 for choosing to keep in the 'no invitation to the keeper'. I just felt like if there was any chance something might get missed or the slightest chance POPLA still see it as noteworthy it would be worth keeping. Plus with the ambiguity of the address it helps to bolster this argument.

Note I have NOT sent this. I am still waiting to hear from the landowners in the hope I can have the charge removed.


POPLA APPEAL DRAFT

No such thing as bad criticism so don't be shy.

I will fully scrap point 3 on the failures of the NtK. I spent the last week hoping to contact the landowners to have the PCN cancelled getting as far as speaking with the agency who represent the landlord but sadly no luck. I know I am soon approaching the deadline for my POPLA appeal and so I just wanted to ask if upon reading my other points (particularly the first one) that I have made my points clear enough? I really want it be clear on the fault of their ANPR system so that the PCN is fairly cancelled.