Author Topic: Crystal Palace park car park PCN  (Read 2188 times)

0 Members and 98 Guests are viewing this topic.

Crystal Palace park car park PCN
« on: »
Didn't expect to be back on here quite so soon but there you go. Have been parking in the park car park for years but just got this in the post. Had no idea they had started charging which I have subsequently discovered commenced in the summer. However, I do not recall any signage as I certainly wouldn't have not paid if I had been aware. It may have been that I'm so used to not paying that I didn't notice the signage so am planning a reccy soon to confirm.

 https://imgur.com/a/csNDaMX

Share on Bluesky Share on Facebook


Re: Crystal Palace park car park PCN
« Reply #1 on: »
Check out section 3,4 of the new Single Code of Practice (CoP), section 3.4:

Quote
3.4. Material changes – notices

Where there is any material change to any pre-existing terms and conditions that would not be immediately apparent to a driver entering controlled land that is or has been open for public parking, the parking operator must place additional (temporary) notices at the site entrance for a period of not less than 4 months from the date of the change making it clear that new terms and conditions/charges apply, such that regular visitors who might be familiar with the old terms do not inadvertently incur parking charges.

NOTE: Examples of material changes can include introduction of parking enforcement where none has previously applied, introduction of time-limited free parking, or reductions in the time limit within which free parking is available. Given the need to avoid confusion and clutter at entrances the test is whether the fact that a change has been made is clearly signalled to drivers on entering the land and the nature of the change is clearly displayed thereafter – it may also be necessary to install repeater notices depending on the scale of the premises.

So, after what date did the change from free parking change to restricted parking and how was the change notified to regular visitors who might be familiar with the old terms or no terms so that they do not inadvertently incur parking charges?
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Crystal Palace park car park PCN
« Reply #2 on: »
From having a look online, it seems that charges commenced on Friday 12th July and is overseen by the 'Crystal Palace Park Trust' The earliest warning I can find of this was from the following press link in April: https://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/24282036.crystal-palace-park-start-charging-car-parking/ although this states that the charges were supposed to start on the 6th June.

Before our latest visit, I would estimate the last time we used that car park was in the spring. I do not recall any temporary signage to forewarn about the changes, nor were there any earlier this month during the visit in which we received the PCN.

Re: Crystal Palace park car park PCN
« Reply #3 on: »
So, if the new regime started on 12th July and there was nothing there previously, the signage should reflect the requirements of the CoP. Get some photos of the signage that is there now, especially any entrance signage and then the actual signage with the terms inside the car park with some shots of the general layout. Make sure that you keep the metadata to prove the date the photos were taken. Any signage required to alert the motorists to the changes should still be in place.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Crystal Palace park car park PCN
« Reply #4 on: »
Thanks, will do. Though I can't be sure there was nothing there before 12th July...

Re: Crystal Palace park car park PCN
« Reply #5 on: »
Doesn't really matter if the terms changed or were introduced on 12th July. It is what is on those signs now to indicate that there are material changes that took effect on 12th July.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
Like Like x 1 View List

Re: Crystal Palace park car park PCN
« Reply #6 on: »
Revisited yesterday. There is signage as well a notification of change of use - though it is tiny and attached to the open gate so not really visible when the car park is open:
https://imgur.com/a/BsXOu6t

Re: Crystal Palace park car park PCN
« Reply #7 on: »
Are they serious?



Parallel to the direction of travel...  ::)

Quote
NOTE: Examples of material changes can include introduction of parking enforcement where none has previously applied, introduction of time-limited free parking, or reductions in the time limit within which free parking is available. Given the need to avoid confusion and clutter at entrances the test is whether the fact that a change has been made is clearly signalled to drivers on entering the land and the nature of the change is clearly displayed thereafter – it may also be necessary to install repeater notices depending on the scale of the premises.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Crystal Palace park car park PCN
« Reply #8 on: »
Putting a sign like that on a gate that is obviously going to be open when the car park is open is a new level of daft - and one small sign in tiny black and white font, too. Nothing preventing them using brighter colours, or putting the sign on the upright post of the gate, so that it would be easy for drivers to spot on the way in.

Re: Crystal Palace park car park PCN
« Reply #9 on: »
Thanks - so is there reasonable grounds for appeal based on the signage not being clearly displayed?

Re: Crystal Palace park car park PCN
« Reply #10 on: »
Of course you appeal it. however, any appeal is going to be rejected, no matter how logical you explain it to them. Additionally, as CPM are IPC members, there is little hope that an appeal to the IAS will be successful.

However, as we are now relying on the new Single Code of Practice (SCoP), it may be worth trying, just to see if there is any change. I doubt it, but I love to be proved wrong.

The initial appeal should just be as follows:

Quote
Formal Appeal Against Parking Charge Notice (PCN No. [Insert PCN Number])

This is an appeal by the Registered Keeper for the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) issued to vehicle [Vehicle Registration Number]. The PCN has been issued unfairly because of the following reasons:

1. Inadequate Signage and Breach of the Single Code of Practice (SCoP)

The signage at the site is inadequate and fails to comply with the Single Code of Practice (October 2024) section 3.4. The only sign is attached to a gate, positioned below windscreen height, parallel to the direction of travel, and features text in a tiny font, making it impossible for drivers to see or read the terms upon entering the car park.

The relevant section of the SCoP (October 2024) states:

"3.4. Material changes – notices

Where there is any material change to any pre-existing terms and conditions that would not be immediately apparent to a driver entering controlled land that is or has been open for public parking, the parking operator must place additional (temporary) notices at the site entrance for a period of not less than 4 months from the date of the change making it clear that new terms and conditions/charges apply, such that regular visitors who might be familiar with the old terms do not inadvertently incur parking charges.

NOTE: Examples of material changes can include introduction of parking enforcement where none has previously applied, introduction of time-limited free parking, or reductions in the time limit within which free parking is available. Given the need to avoid confusion and clutter at entrances the test is whether the fact that a change has been made is clearly signalled to drivers on entering the land and the nature of the change is clearly displayed thereafter – it may also be necessary to install repeater notices depending on the scale of the premises."

The signage at the site fails to meet these requirements, as no clear entrance sign was present to alert the driver of the changes, and there were no repeater signs displaying the new terms within the premises. As a result, no contract was formed between the driver and UK-CPM.

2. Non-Compliance with the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012

The Notice to Keeper fails to meet the requirements of Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) of Schedule 4 of PoFA 2012, as it does not invite the registered keeper to pay the parking charge. Without full compliance with PoFA, the registered keeper cannot be held liable for this charge.

3. Lack of Proof of Driver Identity

As the registered keeper, I am under no obligation to identify the driver to an unregulated private parking company. It is the operator's responsibility to provide sufficient evidence that the keeper and the driver are the same individual. No such evidence has been provided, and therefore, as no inference or assumptions can be made, liability cannot be transferred to the keeper.

In light of these significant failings, I request that this Parking Charge Notice be cancelled immediately.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Crystal Palace park car park PCN
« Reply #11 on: »
However, as we are now relying on the new Single Code of Practice (SCoP), it may be worth trying, just to see if there is any change. I doubt it, but I love to be proved wrong.
In cases where crafting such an appeal won't involve too much work for the OP, it's probably worth running a few more appeals through the IAS just to see if the new code does lead to any change in practice on their part. I also doubt it, but probably worth re-confirming our collective cynicism now there's a new code, particularly as it provides some specifics where the old IPC Code remained (perhaps deliberately) vague.

Re: Crystal Palace park car park PCN
« Reply #12 on: »
Thanks all. Will have a go and let you know how I get on. I suppose the risk of the IAS appeal is paying £100 instead of £60 if unsucessful...

Re: Crystal Palace park car park PCN
« Reply #13 on: »
The appeal will (almost certainly) be unsuccessful, it's a rigged process.

What you are risking is potentially having to ignore some nasty letters and then respond to any actual claim with details provided by members here.
Like Like x 1 View List

Re: Crystal Palace park car park PCN
« Reply #14 on: »
Thanks all. Will have a go and let you know how I get on. I suppose the risk of the IAS appeal is paying £100 instead of £60 if unsucessful...

If you're worrying about the "mugs discount" then feel free to waste your money and fund the scammers. Nobody who follows the advice here pays a penny to CPM.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
Like Like x 1 View List