Author Topic: CPM - Vehicle Not Registered (ANPR) - Hastings House, Cardiff  (Read 845 times)

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I am the registered keeper of the vehicle. On 31st May I received a Parking Charge Notice through the post.

The reason for issuing the charge is given as "Vehicle Not Registered (ANPR)".

The driver entered the car park to pick up an individual working in Fitzalan House (green dot on map). The car park for Fitzalan House has a barrier for entry (blue line on map), for which neither the driver nor individual being picked up knew the code for.

The driver stopped the vehicle near the barrier (red box on map), but on the Hastings House (purple dot on map) side, as access to Fitzalan House is only possible through the Hastings House car park. The vehicle was not stopped in a marked bay, nor did it attempt to stop in a marked bay.

The driver did not leave the vehicle, and at one point during the period the Parking Charge Notice covers, moved to allow a vehicle leaving Fitzalan House car park to exit, before returning to the marked location. The total duration spent in the car park is given as 24 minutes.

A screenshot of the signage from Google street view is attached. Below is a transcription:

Quote
Parking Conditions
Private Property | Terms & Conditions

A VALID UK CPM PERMIT MUST BE CLEARLY DISPLAYED IN THE FRONT WINDSCREEN AT ALL TIMES
[illegible small print]

YOU MUST PARK WHOLLY WITHIN A MARKED BAY.
NO PARKING ON ROADWAYS, YELLOW LINES, [ILLEGIBLE], HATCHES OR LANDSCAPED AREAS


IF UNSURE PLEASE SEEK FURTHER ADVICE FROM CPM OR REFRAIN FROM PARKING

[illegible small print]

Parking Charge of £100

[lots of illegible small print]

[CONTACT NUMBER]

Could it be argued that the driver did not park the vehicle and that the PCN has been issued erroneously as a result? If so, what is the best course of action to rectify the issue?


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Re: CPM - Vehicle Not Registered (ANPR) - Hastings House, Cardiff
« Reply #1 on: »
Had no response and was wary of time ticking away so the PCN has been appealed, quoting Ashby v Tolhurst (1937) and stating that the vehicle wasn't parked.

Any advice is appreciated.

Re: CPM - Vehicle Not Registered (ANPR) - Hastings House, Cardiff
« Reply #2 on: »
Had no response and was wary of time ticking away so the PCN has been appealed, quoting Ashby v Tolhurst (1937) and stating that the vehicle wasn't parked.
Ashby v Tolhurst (1937) is a new one on me. Having looked at an overview of the case, I cannot see how it applied to your situation. Not that quoting case law is going to make an ex-clamper consider accepting an appeal.

Jopson v Homeguard [2016] B9GF0A9E would have been more appropriate as the fact that the driver had to wait at a barrier before gaining access to the other car park may be considered some sort of vicissitude and therefore not actually parking. Then again, the intellectually malnourished ex-clampers at  UKCPM wouldn't care anyway.

None of the case law would even be likely to sway the IAS either. They will only look at the IPC CoP and even then, would likely twist any interpretation to their members advantage.

Can you show us what exactly you put in your appeal?
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: CPM - Vehicle Not Registered (ANPR) - Hastings House, Cardiff
« Reply #3 on: »
Had no response and was wary of time ticking away so the PCN has been appealed, quoting Ashby v Tolhurst (1937) and stating that the vehicle wasn't parked.
Ashby v Tolhurst (1937) is a new one on me. Having looked at an overview of the case, I cannot see how it applied to your situation. Not that quoting case law is going to make an ex-clamper consider accepting an appeal.

Jopson v Homeguard [2016] B9GF0A9E would have been more appropriate as the fact that the driver had to wait at a barrier before gaining access to the other car park may be considered some sort of vicissitude and therefore not actually parking. Then again, the intellectually malnourished ex-clampers at  UKCPM wouldn't care anyway.

None of the case law would even be likely to sway the IAS either. They will only look at the IPC CoP and even then, would likely twist any interpretation to their members advantage.

Can you show us what exactly you put in your appeal?

I haven't got the exact wording as I didn't think to save it (which was daft), but it was essentially that as per "Words and Phrases legally defined" (which references Ashby v Tolhurst (1937)) parking is defined as "leaving the vehicle."

The PCN specifically refers to parking on multiple occasions (and not a more generic "use of car park"), and given that the driver didn't leave the vehicle, the vehicle can't have been parked, and thus can't have been in breach of the terms relating to parking in the area.

I didn't actually include it in the appeal, but the vehicle wasn't even stationary for the entire duration covered by the PCN. It was moved at one point to allow another vehicle to exit from the adjoining car park. I'm not sure this would make much of a difference though.


Re: CPM - Vehicle Not Registered (ANPR) - Hastings House, Cardiff
« Reply #4 on: »
Well, nothing much you can do about that now. Wait for a response to your appeal and let's see what they say.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: CPM - Vehicle Not Registered (ANPR) - Hastings House, Cardiff
« Reply #5 on: »
Classic misunderstanding, you can leave the vehicle in one place while sitting in it.
Totally irrelevant I’m afraid.
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!

Re: CPM - Vehicle Not Registered (ANPR) - Hastings House, Cardiff
« Reply #6 on: »
Classic misunderstanding, you can leave the vehicle in one place while sitting in it.
Totally irrelevant I’m afraid.

What would your suggested response have been?

As above, it wasn't even left in one place. The driver moved it to allow another vehicle to exit from the adjoining car park. My understanding of the "Words and phrases legally defined" definition is that "leaving" means the driver (and passengers?) going somewhere away from the vehicle. If the driver remains within the vehicle (especially for a period as short as 24 minutes), they are waiting, not parking, no?

In a position where I just have to wait and see what they say now, but from what I read elsewhere, the line I took with the appeal was essentially the suggested one, so I'm interested to see what others think I should have said, or perhaps more pertinently, how I should respond/proceed in the event of them rejecting the appeal?

Re: CPM - Vehicle Not Registered (ANPR) - Hastings House, Cardiff
« Reply #7 on: »
I think you might struggle to convince a judge that a car cannot be parked if the driver is inside it, relying solely on a case from 87 years ago where a judge said that "Parking" means "leaving" a car (noting that "leaving" can be defined as "allow or cause to remain"), and in which defining "Parking" doesn't seem to have been the key issue.

Nevertheless, what's done is done, so we should look at the case as it stands. The fact the driver was trying unsuccessfully to get through the barriers may be of use, depending on the circumstances.

Ideally we could do with legible versions of the signage. We could also do with photos showing the barriered area, and any signage in that section of the car park.

Re: CPM - Vehicle Not Registered (ANPR) - Hastings House, Cardiff
« Reply #8 on: »
I think you might struggle to convince a judge that a car cannot be parked if the driver is inside it, relying solely on a case from 87 years ago where a judge said that "Parking" means "leaving" a car (noting that "leaving" can be defined as "allow or cause to remain"), and in which defining "Parking" doesn't seem to have been the key issue.

Nevertheless, what's done is done, so we should look at the case as it stands. The fact the driver was trying unsuccessfully to get through the barriers may be of use, depending on the circumstances.

Ideally we could do with legible versions of the signage. We could also do with photos showing the barriered area, and any signage in that section of the car park.


I don't believe the barrier argument will work as the driver had reversed up to that point, in order to exit the car park forward. All images show the vehicle facing away from the barrier.

Working on the theory that they're going to reject the appeal (which seems likely based on what has been said here), what is my next best step?

I feel any charge is ridiculous for what amounted to 24 minutes of waiting in an area that wasn't actually being used by anyone during that time (other than the car that had to drive through it to leave), but understand that my feelings are irrelevant if the driver automatically entered a contract when entering the space.

I believe I can still pay the £60 'discounted' rate while the appeal is being reviewed, but the notice I received upon appeal states "the PCN is placed on hold" while they look at the appeal. Should they reject the appeal, would I be naive in assuming that this 'discount' would still be valid, given that it was appealed within the 14 day window? If not, the charge is £100, then "up to £170" after 28 days.

I understand there's a further appeal I can make to IPC, but it's already been mentioned in here that this also seems likely to be unsuccessful. However, I've seen mention in other threads of ignoring "threats" from debt collectors with the idea that it's not going to be worth CPM pursuing the "up to £170" themselves, so they just close it. Is this a wise course of action, or am I gambling on an unlikely outcome?

Re: CPM - Vehicle Not Registered (ANPR) - Hastings House, Cardiff
« Reply #9 on: »
Nothing is guaranteed. However, there is a whole process to go through. If you feel particularly aggrieved about the whole situation, then you have to make the decision whether to take it all the way. There is always a good possibility that you can win.

It is likely that if the initial appeal is rejected, they will give you a further 14 days to pay the bribe discounted amount. If you still feel that that amount is unfair and you are up for a fight, then you have to weigh the odds and the amount you may end top having to pay if you lose.

The only way you will have a truly independent arbiter is if it goes to County Court and a judge would decide whether you owe the PPC a debt. IF it ever gets that far, the PPC will have, by then claimed the £100 charge plus the fake £70 damages and then the fixed claim fee of £35 and fixed legal costs of £50. They'll also add on a few £ in interest. Total would be around £255.

However, even if it went agains you in court, you would likely pay less as the £70 damages/contractual costs is usually not allowed and the interest is discretionary and often reduced from 8% to maybe 2% or 0%. So the risk is c£185 -£200. Should it ever get that far and you lost in court, you would pay that within 30 days of judgment and that would be the end of it. No risk of a CCJ being on your credit file. Zilch risk of that as long as it is paid.

Letting it go to court does give you some other advantages as you can defend a claim from these scammers and introduce arguments that their claim is without merit and even an abuse of process. Often these claims, when robustly defended are thrown out before they ever get to a hearing. It is also possible that they are discontinued once the Claimant realises that they have little chance against a robust defence.

It is highly possible that the PPC will go as far as issuing a claim in the hope that you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree that is likely to capitulate and pay into their scam once you see the pressure being built up with the DRA letters and an eventual court claim. It is all designed to get the majority who have no idea about the process, scared into paying up.

Some things we do know is that if they were to issue a claim, there would be problems with the Particulars of Claim (PoC) because they all use the Money Claims On Line (MCOL) ti file them. This restricts what they can put in the PoC and they are always deficient leading to an immediate option to add preliminary matters to the defence requesting a dismissal of the claim before it even gets to a hearing. Also, there's the matter of the claim always being in breach of PoFA 4(5) which limits the claim to no more than the original £100 as stated on the NtK/PCN. Claiming more than that, such as the added £70 fake fees/damages/costs is an abuse of process. The list goes on but we are a long way, if ever, from that.

You have to decide whether it is worth fighting it or capitulating. If you do decide to fight it, you also gain a valuable life experience of how to deal with the civil justice system. Thy choice is yours.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: CPM - Vehicle Not Registered (ANPR) - Hastings House, Cardiff
« Reply #10 on: »
Nothing is guaranteed. However, there is a whole process to go through. If you feel particularly aggrieved about the whole situation, then you have to make the decision whether to take it all the way. There is always a good possibility that you can win.

It is likely that if the initial appeal is rejected, they will give you a further 14 days to pay the bribe discounted amount. If you still feel that that amount is unfair and you are up for a fight, then you have to weigh the odds and the amount you may end top having to pay if you lose.

The only way you will have a truly independent arbiter is if it goes to County Court and a judge would decide whether you owe the PPC a debt. IF it ever gets that far, the PPC will have, by then claimed the £100 charge plus the fake £70 damages and then the fixed claim fee of £35 and fixed legal costs of £50. They'll also add on a few £ in interest. Total would be around £255.

However, even if it went agains you in court, you would likely pay less as the £70 damages/contractual costs is usually not allowed and the interest is discretionary and often reduced from 8% to maybe 2% or 0%. So the risk is c£185 -£200. Should it ever get that far and you lost in court, you would pay that within 30 days of judgment and that would be the end of it. No risk of a CCJ being on your credit file. Zilch risk of that as long as it is paid.

Letting it go to court does give you some other advantages as you can defend a claim from these scammers and introduce arguments that their claim is without merit and even an abuse of process. Often these claims, when robustly defended are thrown out before they ever get to a hearing. It is also possible that they are discontinued once the Claimant realises that they have little chance against a robust defence.

It is highly possible that the PPC will go as far as issuing a claim in the hope that you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree that is likely to capitulate and pay into their scam once you see the pressure being built up with the DRA letters and an eventual court claim. It is all designed to get the majority who have no idea about the process, scared into paying up.

Some things we do know is that if they were to issue a claim, there would be problems with the Particulars of Claim (PoC) because they all use the Money Claims On Line (MCOL) ti file them. This restricts what they can put in the PoC and they are always deficient leading to an immediate option to add preliminary matters to the defence requesting a dismissal of the claim before it even gets to a hearing. Also, there's the matter of the claim always being in breach of PoFA 4(5) which limits the claim to no more than the original £100 as stated on the NtK/PCN. Claiming more than that, such as the added £70 fake fees/damages/costs is an abuse of process. The list goes on but we are a long way, if ever, from that.

You have to decide whether it is worth fighting it or capitulating. If you do decide to fight it, you also gain a valuable life experience of how to deal with the civil justice system. Thy choice is yours.

Thank you for the help.

I'll sit tight for now and see what the result of the appeal is.

Re: CPM - Vehicle Not Registered (ANPR) - Hastings House, Cardiff
« Reply #11 on: »
As above, it wasn't even left in one place. The driver moved it to allow another vehicle to exit from the adjoining car park. My understanding of the "Words and phrases legally defined" definition is that "leaving" means the driver (and passengers?) going somewhere away from the vehicle. If the driver remains within the vehicle (especially for a period as short as 24 minutes), they are waiting, not parking, no?
Well they wouldn't accept any appeal, so you should have just stated it wasn't parked.  You are still trying to apply a legal definition to something which doesn't need it (and there is none applicable).

The only person who's decision would matter would be a county court judge determining whether the actions on that day constituted parking for the purposes of the contract on offer (the signs).

For almost any argument you can use examples for and against.

As an extreme if the car was in the car park for 2 hours being moved every 5 minutes to try and avoid being 'parked' but each time occupying a parking space a judge would almost certainly decide it was parked for the purposes of the contract, breaching the contract and that the sum demanded was owed.

Conversely if the car was there for 10 minutes, parked, spotted signs they couldn't read, moved to where they could be, the sign read and rejected and the driver left promptly (maybe being delayed by traffic as well) then a Judge would probably decide that it was not parked despite exceeding the minimum grace period.
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!