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Hi,
I am new to the forum (and not so computer savvy
) and hope someone can get help me with the following:
I was sent Contractual parking charge notice for parking in private store car park for longer hours than permitted.
The permitted amount of time is 120 minutes and the car was recorded there for 189 minutes.
The driver told me that on the road just outside the car park there were works being done at the time and being rush hour there was a complete standstill of cars queing in the car park and there was no way out!
I sent this reply to G24 and they just sent me standard reply ignoring my claims.
The adjudicator then gave the following decision:
Any reasons given by the Appellant for the overstay may amount to mitigation, which the operator has duly considered. If the operator felt that the mitigation warranted it, they could have withdrawn the Parking Charge. They have chosen not to do so.
(I think this is not mitigation as one can not lock up someone in a car park and then charge them)
Now I have received claim from HM Courts & Tribunals.
The questions are:
Is it correct that I do not have to pay
Do I have to prove the circumstances. It is far harder for me to do this now that 6 months have passed. They did not ask for this when I appealed to G24! -
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Is it correct that I do not have to pay
If you've received a court claim then you have a few options:
1) Pay it (in full)
2) Negotiate to pay a lower amount
3) Defend it
(The forum would lean towards 3, but effort is required)Do I have to prove the circumstances. It is far harder for me to do this now that 6 months have passed. They did not ask for this when I appealed to G24!
Your Witness Statement (a statement of truth) can state that.
The parking company won't care as they just want the cash. The situation on the road will be nothing to do with the parking company - it may be difficult to get any 'evidence' to show the work was ongoing.
The key plank of your (legal) defence will be a frustration of contract. That is, you could not comply with the terms (to leave on time) because of circumstances outside your control. -
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We will ideally need more information in order to provide sound advice. Please read the following thread and provide as much of the information it asks for as you are able to - READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide. That thread also provides advice on using Imgur to upload any images.
As a starting point it would be good to see:- The original Parking Charge Notice
- A copy of the appeal you submitted
- A copy of the subsequent appeal to the independent appeals service
- A copy of the claim form you have received
It would also be good to understand a little bit more about the circumstances on the date in question. You mention that traffic delayed their exit, but the overstay was 69 minutes. On the face of it, that seems like an incredibly long time to be stuck in a queue to leave a car park. Are you saying the driver was back in their car before the 120 minutes expired, but then spent an hour queueing to get out? -
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APPEAL:
You completed the appeal on 01/10/2024
I wrote to the claimant that at the time of parking there were works being done on the road outside parking lot. This created an awful traffic jam WITHIN the car park where there was literally no way to move for ages. In effect we were locked in and are being given a pcn for that. The rules of parking do not require me to fly out. I further wrote that can confirm with the bank the TIME of transaction for shopping that was done at the shopping centre there. They can easily check CCTV to prove my point and also other people must have been charged. I was shocked with their reply: they did not even read!! my appeal just sent me a ready made template rejecting it!!
They should also explain what they will do about other people who have received pcn at the same time
The operator made their Prima Facie Case on 08/10/2024
The operator reported that...
The appellant was the keeper.
The operator is seeking keeper liability in accordance with PoFA..
ANPR/CCTV was used.
The Notice to Keeper was sent on 22/08/2024.
A response was received from the Notice to Keeper.
The ticket was issued on 22/08/2024.
The Notice to Keeper (ANPR) was sent in accordance with PoFA.
The charge is based in Contract.
The operator made the following comments...
This is not a relevant consideration as the motorist entered into a contract with G24 Ltd, so have agreed to pay.
The signs advertising the terms and conditions of the car park are compliant with our Approved Operator Scheme and displayed in prominent locations throughout the car park.
The motorist entered into a contract with G24 Ltd to park within the permitted free parking of 120 minutes and the motorist parking period was for 189 minutes therefore the CPCN still applies.
It is for the above reasons that the appeal was rejected.
The appellant made their response on 10/10/2024
The operator is suggesting that the legal contract requires me to move my car without a physical ability to get out i.e. the operator would be happy to lock the car park gates and then charge the cars for not going out. It is the requirement of the operator to ensure access and exit are POSSIBLE.
I further reiterate that the operator should cancel any other claims made under the same circumstances
The adjudicator made their decision on 19/10/2024
The Appellant should understand that the Adjudicator is not in a position to give legal advice to either of the parties but they are entitled to seek their own independent legal advice. The Adjudicator's role is to consider whether or not the parking charge has a basis in law and was properly issued in the circumstances of each individual case. In all Appeals the Adjudicator is bound by the relevant law applicable at the time and is only able to consider legal challenges and not factual mistakes nor extenuating or mitigating circumstances. Throughout this appeal the Operator has had the opportunity consider all points raised and could have conceded the appeal at any stage. The Adjudicator who deals with this Appeal is legally qualified and each case is dealt with according to their understanding of the law as it applies and the legal principles involved. A decision by an Adjudicator is not legally binding on an Appellant who is entitled to seek their own legal advice if they so wish.
The signage at this site is prominent, clear and unequivocal in its terms; there is a maximum stay allowed of 120 minutes.
The Appellant's vehicle was recorded as remaining on site for 189 minutes.
Any reasons given by the Appellant for the overstay may amount to mitigation, which the operator has duly considered. If the operator felt that the mitigation warranted it, they could have withdrawn the Parking Charge. They have chosen not to do so.
As stated above, as adjudicator I am only able to consider legal argument. The Appellant in this case has no legal argument.
Having considered all the relevant issues raised, I am satisfied that the operator has established that the Parking Charge was properly issued in accordance with the law.
This appeal therefore has to be dismissed.
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Over 70 minutes is a long time to be trapped in a car park under the circumstances you describe. If you are going to rely on frustration of contract which would be a valid defence you're going to need to be able to back up that claim with evidence. It would be interesting to know whether G24 saw an increase in PCNs on that day, unfortunately they are not going to divulge that sort of information to you. From their perspective if PCN issuance was normal on the day the drivers claims won't seem very credible. People get confused, exaggerate and downright lie when they appeal so G24 is not going to take the (unknown) driver's word for it.
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They can easily check CCTV to prove my point
CCTV? There is unlikely to be any video.
The system operates by ANPR - this simply snaps entries and exits (Without any context).The Appellant in this case has no legal argument.
Er...
It's a sausage-machine. Computer says overstay, they want paying regardless.
As already noted, there is a potential legal angle of frustration. But 70 minutes is stretching credibility but isn't impossible.
As this is a store car park, what did they say when approached?
Note that it's part of the process in issuing a claim - they may back down if robustly defended. (It's the ultimate 'debt collection' process that many will fold at as it appears daunting) -
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With an issue date of 29th April, you have until 4pm on Monday 19th May to submit your defence. If you submit an Acknowledgement of Service (AoS) before then, you would then have until 4pm on Monday 2nd June to submit your defence.
If you want to submit an AoS then follow the instructions in this linked PDF:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvqu3bask5m0zir/money-claim-online-How-to-Acknowledge.pdf?dl=0
Otherwise, here is the defence and link to the draft order that goes with it. You only need to edit your name and the claim number. You sign the defence by typing your full name for the signature and date it. There is nothing to edit in the draft order.
When you're ready you combine both documents as a single PDF attachment and send as an attachment in an email to claimresponses.cnbc@justice.gov.uk and CC in yourself. The claim number must be in the email subject field and in the body of the email just put: "Please find attached the defence and draft order in the matter of G24 Ltd v [your full name] Claim no.: [claim number]."QuoteIN THE COUNTY COURTClaim No: [Claim Number]BETWEEN:
G24 Ltd
Claimant
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[Defendant's Full Name]
Defendant
DEFENCE
1. The Defendant denies the claim in its entirety. The Defendant asserts that there is no liability to the Claimant and that no debt is owed. The claim is without merit and does not adequately disclose any comprehensible cause of action.
2. There is a lack of precise detail in the Particulars of Claim (PoC) in respect of the factual and legal allegations made against the Defendant such that the PoC do not comply with CPR 16.4.
3. The Defendant is unable to plead properly to the PoC because:(a) The contract referred to is not detailed or attached to the PoC in accordance with CPR PD 16(7.5);
(b) The PoC do not state the exact wording of the clause (or clauses) of the terms and conditions of the contract (or contracts) which is/are relied on;
(c) The PoC do not adequately set out the reason (or reasons) why the claimant asserts the defendant has breached the contract (or contracts)
(d) The PoC do not state with sufficient particularity exactly where the breach occurred, the exact time when the breach occurred and how long it is alleged that the vehicle was parked before the parking charge was allegedly incurred;
(e) The PoC do not state precisely how the sum claimed is calculated, including the basis for any statutory interest, damages, or other charges;
(f) The PoC do not state what proportion of the claim is the parking charge and what proportion is damages;
(g) The PoC do not provide clarity on whether the Defendant is sued as the driver or the keeper of the vehicle, as the claimant cannot plead alternative causes of action without specificity.
4. The Defendant attaches to this defence a copy of a draft order approved by a district judge at another court. The court struck out the claim of its own initiative after determining that the Particulars of Claim failed to comply with CPR 16.4. The judge noted that the claimant had failed to:(i) Set out the exact wording of the clause (or clauses) of the terms and conditions relied upon;
(ii) Adequately explain the reasons why the defendant was allegedly in breach of contract;
(iii) Provide separate, detailed Particulars of Claim as permitted under CPR PD 7C.5.2(2).
(iv) The court further observed that, given the modest sum claimed, requiring further case management steps would be disproportionate and contrary to the overriding objective. Accordingly, the judge struck out the claim outright rather than permitting an amendment.
5. The Defendant submits that the same reasoning applies in this case and invites the court to adopt a similar approach by striking out the claim for the Claimant’s failure to comply with CPR 16.4.
Statement of truth
I believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.
Signed:
Date:
Draft Order for the defence -
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Thanks for all your replies!
The exact situation was that the driver (was not myself) tried to exit the car park before the 2 hour deadline to drive to another shopping centre round the corner. Having sat in the car for probably 30 mins seeing the deadlock she gave up and walked to the nearby shopping centre and returned later.
So in effect the car was locked in at the time needed to exit, but she was able to remove it sometime before the 189 minute exit time.
Questions are:
1) Was she required to stay there until she could exit.
2) Regarding evidence: I can probably find a member of staff of one of the shops who remembers the fact that there was crazy deadlock but they are unlikely to remember the date and time. I do have bank statements showing purchases in the shop from that shopping centre as well as the nearby shopping centre but it does not show the time of the day to be able to prove validate the facts. However as I pointed out if they would have requested the evidence much earlier it would have been much easier to get hold of, eg shop CCTV. But when I appealed the charge they did not request it. Does that make any difference?
3) Maybe there is another line of defense? You are the experts!
Thanks!
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The only thing you need to concern yourself as the named defendant is to do exactly what I have advised.
Everything else, for now, is irrelevant. -
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Wow!!
Thanks!
Is the attachment all correct? (With alias)The only thing you need to concern yourself as the named defendant is to do exactly what I have advised.
You look like you have a sense of humour: I will not be guilty of arguing with your instructions lest I fall into Twains trap
(Attachment Link) -
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You only need to edit your name and the claim number. You sign the defence by typing your full name for the signature and date it. There is nothing to edit in the draft order.
I'm not sure which bit of the above is not clear? -
Wow x 1
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