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Messages - jays86

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1
Thanks, DWMB2. That makes sense regarding grace and consideration periods.

Regarding the 'double dip,' the driver is certain they exited and re-entered, and is certain that it is in close proximity to the times shown on the NtK. They think, but aren't certain, that the "From" time represents their first entry to the car park, the "To" time certainly represents the time that they exited the car park for the final time. Is it worth framing as a challenge to their logs? Even if they don't accept the double dip, I'm hoping the 13-minute total duration is too short to be considered 'parking' anyway.

I've reordered the points to lead with the 'Double Dip' and 'Consideration Period' as you suggested. Revised draft below—any further thoughts?


Dear Sir or Madam,

Re: Parking Charge Notice number []

I am appealing this notice on the following grounds:

1. ANPR Technical Failure (Potential Double Dip)
The vehicle entered and exited the site on two separate occasions within a short timeframe. It appears your ANPR system has suffered from a 'double-dipping' error, incorrectly pairing the first entry with the final departure and failing to record the intermediate exit and re-entry. I require you to check your full image logs (including 'orphan' records) for this VRM to verify the two separate visits.

2. Mandatory Consideration Period / No "Period of Parking"
Even if your ANPR data were accurate, your evidence shows a total duration of stay of only 13 minutes. Per the BPA Code of Practice, a motorist must be allowed a 'Consideration Period' to enter a site, find a space, and read the signage to decide whether to accept the terms of the contract. A 13-minute stay—which includes the time taken to drive from the boundary cameras to a bay and back again—is entirely consumed by a reasonable consideration period. No contract was entered into; the driver simply observed the terms and left the site. I rely upon Excel Parking Services Ltd v Burgess [Case No: C8DP11F0] regarding the distinction between "time on site" and "period of parking."

3. Non-Compliance with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4
The Notice to Keeper fails to satisfy the requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

Failure to specify the "Period of Parking": As established in Excel v Burgess, camera timestamps of entry and exit do not satisfy the requirement of Paragraph 9(2)(a) to specify the period the vehicle was actually parked.

Late Delivery: While the notice is dated 24 March, actual delivery to the Keeper occurred on 7 April, 20 days after the incident. As this exceeds the 14-day limit for Keeper liability, the Creditor has no legal right to recover this charge from the Keeper.

2
Hi Based on the 14-day rule (Incident: 18 March, Received: 7 April) and the 13-minute stay shown on the NtK, I’ve drafted the following appeal. I'm focusing on PoFA non-compliance, the 'Double Dip' technical error, and the lack of a defined 'period of parking' (citing Burgess). Does this look airtight before I submit?

Dear Sir or Madam,

Re: Parking Charge Notice number []
I am appealing this notice on the following grounds:

1. Late Delivery and Lack of Keeper Liability (PoFA 2012)
The alleged incident occurred on 18 March 2026. Under Schedule 4, Paragraph 9 of the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012, a Notice to Keeper must be delivered within 14 days of the incident (by 1 April 2026). This notice was not received until 7 April 2026. Because you have failed to comply with the mandatory notice period required by the Act to transfer liability from the driver, there is no lawful basis to hold me, the Registered Keeper, liable for this charge. As the requirements of the Act have not been met, I am under no legal obligation to identify the driver and I decline to do so."

2. Failure to Identify the "Period of Parking"
Your notice identifies ANPR camera timestamps for entry and exit. However, it fails to specify the actual "period of parking" as strictly required by PoFA 2012, Paragraph 9(2)(a). I rely upon the persuasive authority of Excel Parking Services Ltd v Burgess [Case No: C8DP11F0], which established that ANPR timestamps recording times of entry and exit are not evidence of a "period of parking."

3. ANPR Technical Failure (Double Dipping)
Your ANPR system has suffered from a well-documented "double-dipping" error. The vehicle entered and exited the site on two separate occasions within a short timeframe. Your system has paired the initial entry of the day with the final departure, failing to record the intermediate exit and re-entry. I require you to check your full image logs for this VRM to identify the "orphan" records that prove the vehicle was not on site for a continuous period.

4. Mandatory Grace and Consideration Periods
Even if your flawed ANPR data were accurate, your evidence shows an entry at 14:24 and an exit at 14:37—a total duration of only 13 minutes. Per the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice, a motorist must be allowed a "Consideration Period" to read signs and a "Grace Period" to leave the site. A 13-minute stay is entirely consumed by these mandatory periods, meaning no "period of parking" in breach of terms occurred.

Conclusion
As you have failed to meet the statutory requirements of PoFA 2012 to transfer liability to the Keeper, and your own evidence proves no parking contract was breached, I require you to cancel this PCN immediately and confirm in writing that my data has been removed from your systems.

3
To clarify, the driver is unsure whether the entry time recorded on the Notice to Keeper relates to the first pass through the car park, when the vehicle briefly entered and exited while locating the correct site. The exit time corresponds to the final departure from the site after the second visit, during which the vehicle was parked.

Would it be relevant to any appeal to understand how ANPR systems typically handle multiple entries within a short period, and whether this could result in two separate visits being recorded as a single continuous stay?

4
The driver entered the car park twice. The first occasion they drove straight through the car park as they weren't sure they were at the right location. They drove around the block and then back into the car park where they parked, collected some items, returned to the vehicle and left.

On 7th April, I, the registered keeper, received a PCN through the post. I wonder if the time of entry is perhaps the time the driver first entered the car park? Is the NtK fully complaint with PoFA 2012, or could it be appealed on these grounds?



5
Private parking tickets / Re: UK Car Park Management PCN
« on: April 25, 2025, 03:20:29 pm »
Thanks for your detailed and comprehensive response @b789 I have filled in the blanks from below and sent it to the Management Company, and will update here once I have a response.

6
Private parking tickets / Re: UK Car Park Management PCN
« on: April 25, 2025, 10:57:05 am »
I've been away with work and this slipped off my radar a bit. I've dug the Title Deeds out Is there anything here that could help?


In the meantime I've received this letter from a debt collection company. Any suggestions as to how to handle from here?

7
Private parking tickets / Re: UK Car Park Management PCN
« on: March 13, 2025, 10:06:48 pm »
I'll see what I can dig out. Given I've lived here since 2016 and there's been a permit in the car since it was purchased what are the chances that these shysters have edited the photos?

8
Private parking tickets / Re: UK Car Park Management PCN
« on: March 13, 2025, 07:53:24 pm »
 ??? Not sure why the permit isn't visible in their picture.

Don't have a lease, I'm a freeholder. Is there any other information I should be looking for?

9
Private parking tickets / UK Car Park Management PCN
« on: March 13, 2025, 06:49:16 pm »
Hi
Received the below through the post today. The pictures are of my vehicle outside my own house, the vehicle had a permit displayed. Happy to fight this all the way. Would the suggested response be about the notice not being compliant, or the fact that a permit was displayed?



10
Just had the following response from Havering:

Thank you for your enquiry.

I can confirm the contravention date is 24/09/2024 and the Penalty Charge Notice was issued Friday 18/10/2024 1st class mail therefore service is deemed Monday 21/10/2024 which is 27 days service.

Please be advised the options available to you at this time are to make payment of the full outstanding balance of £130 to prevent incurring further charges or wait for the Order For Recovery to file Statutory Declaration should you have the grounds (please see grounds below) to do so and return the form to Traffic Enforcement Centre the address can be found on the form.

I did not receive the:
Notice to Owner (Parking contravention) or
Enforcement Notice (Bus lane contravention) or
Penalty Charge Notice (Moving Traffic contravention or Congestion Charging contravention)
I made representations about the penalty charge to the local authority concerned within 28 days of the service of the Notice to Owner/Enforcement Notice/Penalty Charge Notice, but did not receive a rejection notice.
I appealed to the Parking/Traffic Adjudicator against the local authority’s decision to reject my representation, within 28 days of service of the rejection notice, but have had no response to my appeal.

Kind regards


Any suggestions on next steps...?

11
Here's a draft of what I'm going to send. Any comments/changes before I do?

I am writing with regard to Penalty Charge Notice HG6144554A issued to my vehicle EJ67FLV.

The PCN is invalid and not legally enforceable based on Section 6 - Limitation on service of penalty charge notice, which clearly states:

“Subject to the provisions of this section, no penalty charge notice may be served under this Act after the expiry of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention or failure to comply occurred.”

The alleged contravention occurred on 24th September, and the PCN is deemed to be served on 22nd October (deemed service is the 2nd working day following the date of the letter). This exceeds the 28-day limitation period specified in the Act, rendering the PCN unlawful.

Your continued pursuit of this invalid PCN is not only unjust but also unlawful. Given this I respectfully request that the PCN be immediately cancelled and that you confirm this in writing at your earliest convenience.

12
Thanks for all the advice so far.

@MrChips I don't have the exact date I submitted reps, poor record keeping on my part. Their letter references 19th November, but I can't see why I would have left it so long to get something over to them.

@mrmustard The car is not leased and that is an interesting point that you raise regarding the 28 days.

Is the complaint here that, the PCN was served outside the 28 day period and is therefore unlawful. Furthermore no Charge Certificate was ever received. Is there anything else I should be saying?

13
I never received a Charge Certificate, the only correspondence I received was dated 18th October and then this today.

14
Reps were submitted as suggested by Hippocrates, then no further correspondence received or sent until this popped through the letterbox today.

15
Just received the below through from Havering, any suggestions as to what to do here...?


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