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Messages - H C Andersen

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1
That's not lawful and on the face of it is a clear procedural impropriety.

From the General Regs
Notice to owner
20.—(1) Where—

(a)a penalty charge notice has been given with respect to a vehicle under regulation 9, and

(b)the period of 28 days specified in the penalty charge notice as the period within which the penalty charge is to be paid has expired without that charge being paid,

the enforcement authority concerned may serve a notice (a “notice to owner”) on the person who appears to it to have been the owner of the vehicle when the alleged contravention occurred.


From the Traffic Management Act:
“owner”, in relation to a vehicle, means the person by whom the vehicle is kept, which in the case of a vehicle registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c. 22) is presumed (unless the contrary is proved) to be the person in whose name the vehicle is registered;


2
Private parking tickets / Re: CAR TOWED on private land 7 DAY TORT NOTICE
« on: December 08, 2025, 11:10:05 am »
FWIM, I don't see how it can be 'theft' because the person who has possession does not intend to permanently deprive the owner of their goods* but rather to release on payment of the stated sum. IMO, it's certainly a crime(bp listed several possibilities), but not theft.

I hope the OP has secured legal advice.

*- interestingly, the 'Torts' notice made no reference to a release fee, but to removal and scrapping(OP, this word is blurred, is it scrapping?) but the second notice does.

3
Private parking tickets / Re: CAR TOWED on private land 7 DAY TORT NOTICE
« on: December 07, 2025, 05:50:59 pm »
Thanks very much.

As I understand it, a 'Torts Notice' and subsequent removal is open to a landowner as a remedy against a nuisance caused when a vehicle is left on their land without permission. But what is not allowed is this 'self-help' means of securing payment of unpaid parking charges which are based in PoFA.

If PPS were involved in instructing the Enforcement Agent, then IMO they're in deep trouble with the BPA. But perhaps the landowner went native and as the person responsible for managing the property (PPS) could only shrug their shoulders and point to the limiting nature of PoFA, they decided to employ other means using LME Services Ltd. But as the NTK which you posted identifies PPS(London) Ltd as the creditor, then the £5k+ demand would appear to be bogus and unlawful as regards action under the 1977 Act.

4
Private parking tickets / Re: CAR TOWED on private land 7 DAY TORT NOTICE
« on: December 07, 2025, 02:59:42 pm »
If a warrant of control was not involved, then I apologise.

My post wasn't intended to challenge the OP's actions, but instead to flesh out those parts which might assist.

Mr Ebrahim is a Certificated Bailiff according to the register.

The issue of PCNs and the signs and asking for a specimen was to see whether in fact the issues arise under 'relevant contract' or 'a relevant obligation arising as a result of a trespass or other tort..' provisions of PoFA. The prohibitive wording of the sign suggests it could be the latter.

My request to flesh out the underlying issue was to see even at this stage whether any application to the court could be bolstered by an assertion that the underlying claims are without foundation.

5
Each to their own.

IMO, the obvious advantage to my suggested course of action is to establish the basis of their claims. If you do challenge them at the hearing, then the adjudicator might adjourn, would you want this? If you don't, then IMO you do yourself no favours.

On being asked the questions, they might choose to not contest because there is no basis for the claims, see below.

The advantages are clear, but if this is to be taken off line then we won't be able to advise at the remaining intermediate stages.

From the Tribunal's Practice Direction No. 2 of 2024:

The appellant’s representations to the Authority and their Notice of Appeal, together with the Authority’s Case Summary, will be sufficient in most cases to enable the Adjudicator to decide the matter.
c. Parties should consider, and may be asked to justify, why their case has not been contained in the Notice of Appeal or case summary respectively.
d. A Skeleton Argument or additional representations must:
- be concise
- identify the statutory ground or grounds of appeal relied upon
- clearly and briefly outline the issues with reference to the relevant ground,
- include a chronology of the facts, if it would assist the Adjudicator
- be set out in numbered paragraphs with the use of headings where appropriate
- be cross referenced to any relevant documents
- not include extensive quotations from documents or extensive repetition of the
evidence
- include a list of the relevant authorities, if any, and identify those that assist and do not assist the party’s case



And are the cited case numbers correct? If so, how does the authority think this bolsters their position?


6
Private parking tickets / Re: CAR TOWED on private land 7 DAY TORT NOTICE
« on: December 07, 2025, 01:26:15 pm »
As per bp, I think you need legal advice.

bp's (and the District Judge's) advice is predicated on the facts as we know them, my worry is that these might not be all the relevant facts.

For example: : I have 29 PCNs from PPS private parking company - all at the same location,

...car parking charge consisting of 29 fines which have multiplied in costs (My plan was to wait for LOC to arrive for PCNs and argue)

So what's happened? An approved operator, PPS, decided to abandon(!) the Code of Practice and PoFA and out of frustration use a different tactic to achieve their ends, or what?

Why would PPS take such an overt risk when their landowner cannot indemnify them against their ATA's sanctions? Has this in fact got anything to do with PPS? Their name appears under 'Site Managed By' on the first notice after which they're not mentioned.

What was said when the car was removed and the police attended?

How come this is 'theft' if the Enforcement Agent was acting under a warrant?

You say 'As I use my vehicle on a daily basis and at this time of year, I really do need my vehicle back..' so you need to act urgently.

On the underlying issue, why were you parked where a sign clearly says you may not? There's no offer of a contract, you may not park or wait at any time 24/7. Perhaps you could post one of the parking charge notices and notices to keeper?

7
I went to the location to take some photos and realised the PCN has the wrong location.

Now you tell us!

Perhaps...

Since receiving the PCN, I have discovered that in the vicinity of the alleged contravention there are 2 parking places marked LOADING ONLY. One runs from nos. 27 -33 at which point it terminates to be followed by a 24/7 waiting restriction which protects the vehicle crossover to the rear entrance of the Iceland store (which is situated in Surrey Street). This is then followed by a further parking place marked LOADING ONLY which extends runs from nos.35-41.

These parking places are distinct.

The PCN is clear: 'Church Street, Croydon, os 35'. Therefore I was alleged to have contravened whichever restriction applies to the parking place which runs from nos. 35-41. But this is not in evidence because not only was I parked in the parking place which terminates at no. 33, the blurred traffic signs in evidence relate to this parking place and not 35-41. Therefore, not only do your photos show that I was not parked where alleged, they also do not indicate what restriction applied 'os 35' because none of the photos shows that parking place, its road markings or applicable traffic sign.

In short: you allege I was parked 'os 35' and contravened whichever restriction applied at that place. But I wasn't, therefore I couldn't.

Please cancel the PCN.

8
Absolutely, which is why the TMA excluded on-street obstruction because the exercise of subjective opinion requires training and is best left with the police. But they did introduce the '50 cm' contravention to help councils deal with this form of parking(double parking), particularly near sports grounds.

 

10
The Case Summary is presented to the adjudicator. In itself it does not form evidence but refers to evidence e.g. the signs, your reps, CCTV of your car passing the signs etc.

IMO, anything which is included should, if intended to be material, exist as evidence.

So, where is the DfT guidance on School Streets which the council implemented?

'The use of conditional expressions such as 'Term time only' has been accepted by the Department of Transport for these schemes.' So where is it?

IMO, in both cases if it's not in evidence then it doesn't exist.

I would write back to Parking and Traffic Enforcement.

Sir,
PCN *********; Case No. ********

Thank you for a copy of the evidence you have submitted to the adjudicator in respect of the above appeal. I thank you for providing this at such an early stage because it gives me time to consider this in detail and for the authority to provide what appear to be missing items of evidence.

My request refers to the extracts from the Traffic Management Order and to your Case Summary.

TMO
1. Please provide me with the relevant provision within the TMO or any principal order which applies as regards 'traffic signs';
2. Please provide the relevant provision within this order or any principal order which applies to the effect that the prohibition may be varied summarily by officers of the Enforcement Authority or by any other means.

Case Summary
I refer to page 3:

Para. 1: Please provide the document(s) e.g. guidance etc. which form the basis of the council's assertion that:
'the use of conditional expressions such as 'term time only' has been accepted by the Department for Transport for these schemes';

'the signage in question..follows DfT guidance on School Streets'.

Para. 2
I cannot find the referenced appeal cases on the ETA database, have you quoted the correct numbers? I should be permitted to examine these as the authority wish the adjudicator to have regard to their reasoning and conclusion that 'this shows that adjudicators have upheld enforcement under similar wording when the signage meets statutory requirements'. At present, I cannot see how this statement helps the authority because one of the key issues at large and to be determined is whether in fact the council's signage does in fact meet statutory requirements.

Yours,

11
Thanks.

OP, I cannot find the following in the evidence:

Support for the statements in para.1 of page 3 of the Council's Summary e.g. DfT guidance etc.

The part of the TMO which refers to 'traffic signs'.

For others, I cannot find the cited ETA decisions in para. 2, have they been referenced correctly?

For what it's worth, as regards the contravention IMO the issues for the adjudicator are:

1.What does the Traffic Management Order provide;
2.Is this conveyed adequately by traffic signs to meet the legal test i.e. as a minimum LATOR?

1. An all-year round restriction as set out in col. 4 of item 1 of the Schedule to the TMO. There is NO legal authority for 'term-time' only within the order.

2. The signs comprise an unspecified advance warning sign and at the entrance to the restricted area a prescribed traffic sign together with 'colourful on-street information signs that are designed to catch the eye of ... drivers.'

The 'colourful signs' are therefore considered by the council to form part of the regulatory signage at this point. However, the signs in combination do not convey the legal position which is, according to the TMO, a 365-day restriction.
Self-evidently, the council has failed to meet the LATOR test.

The council appears to want matters both ways: to have a TMO which is made by a formal process of corporate council decision-making and consultation which is then varied at a whim by departmental officers who ignore its provisions by failing to enforce as required.

If 'procedural impropriety' was a ground of appeal, I'd include it.




 


12
I've just skimmed the Evidence Pack

Has this been posted?

13
How should I best proceed?

Wait.

See Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/parking-penalty-charge-notice-enforcement-process

There's nothing unique or pressing about your situation.

Please read the above and come back with any questions.




14
It's not relevant at present, you received a NTO and have made representations against this in time.

They must consider.

@Incandescent, for better or worse, 'Parked causing an obstruction' is an approved contravention description which may be applied to a PCN as the grounds for demanding a penalty.

15
Given that the words themselves aren't necessary, but the meaning must be conveyed(albeit that to depart from the verbatim regs carries a risk) we'll have to disagree on this one.

As it's probable that this line would be rejected, I think the OP should wait to see whether other ideas are forthcoming.



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