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Messages - atleastitwasntstolen

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
« on: January 28, 2025, 07:57:24 pm »
Update: I've unfortunately received a letter (dated January 9th) stating that my representations have not been successful. If I'm understanding correctly, an appeal would be due Thursday February 6th.

I've attached a copy of the letter here - is there any chance of an appeal being successful, and if so how would I best go about doing so?

Thanks for any help!
J









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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
« on: December 17, 2024, 08:37:42 pm »
Hello! I’ve gathered the following additional info:
  •  The parking suspension for Nov 18th was applied for on Nov 11th. This is a total of 5 business days (6 if you’re generous and count both the 11th and the 18th to that total) in advance of the suspension which goes against Tower Hamlets suspension application T&Cs on multiple counts. 
  • A total of 25 bays were suspended for filming, starting “next to the cycle hire station”. My car was parked 13 – 15 car lengths from the cycle hire station.
  • Parking department says they posted signs on the 13th of November
 
I’ve drafted the following, which I'll be submitting on Friday, and would very much appreciate any feedback:

-----
 
Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to formally challenge the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) issued to my vehicle (Registration Number: LP13 JYJ) on 18 November 2024 for being parked in a partly or wholly suspended bay.

I would like to submit the following points in my representation for your review and consideration:

  • Suspension application process general terms and conditions violated on multiple points: I have been informed that the relevant suspension application was submitted on 11 November 2024. This was 7 calendar days (5 business days) in advance of the suspension date of 18 November 2024. The suspension was for 25 spaces. This is in direct opposition to points 1, 3, 10, and 11 of the Tower Hamlets Suspension Terms and Conditions for parking suspension applications (https://www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/lgnl/transport_and_streets/Parking/Terms_and_conditions/Suspension-terms-and-conditions.aspx). As this suspension was for over the usually allowed limit of 10 car lengths (T&Cs #1), the suspension would have to have been applied for 10 days in advance of the suspension date (T&Cs #10). Furthermore, even if the suspension was for only 10 spaces, points 3 and 11 would have been violated, which require applications are submitted and paid for 7 working days in advance “in order to give residents enough notice to make alternative arrangements.” As the suspension application was submitted only 5 working days in advance of the suspension date, even this lower threshold was not met. Point 12 of the T&Cs notes that shorter notice applications can in some cases be approved at the discretion of Tower Hamlets, however the examples provided include emergencies such as “gas/water leaks, road collapse, police for security purpose”. Filming should not be considered an appropriate emergency according to these descriptions. As such, the suspension was not properly applied for, the suspension itself not valid, and my PCN should be voided.  
  • Incorrect suspension signage used: From the photographs taken at the time of the PCN being issued, it is clear that the suspension signs the council used do not conform to the Authorisation drawing approved by the Secretary of State for Transport under Sections 64 and 65 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 for the London Borough of Tower Hamlets (GT50/096/0006). As per point 1 of this document, suspension signs must “conform as to the size, colour and character with the sign shown in the attached drawing…”. The text and design of the posted suspension sign clearly differs from the approved design, invalidating the suspension.  
  • No Opportunity to Rectify the Situation: According to the PCN, my vehicle first ticketed at 09:56. On 27 November 2024 I received a letter notifying me of the vehicle removal, which states that the council "removed the above vehicle from Southern Grove on 18/11/2024 at 09:56". This indicates I had no opportunity to rectify the situation between the issuance of the ticket and the removal of my vehicle. In circumstances where a parking contravention is identified, it is common practice to allow the driver an opportunity to move the vehicle if they are able to do so, or at least be informed of the contravention promptly. The lack of such an opportunity in this case seems unjust, as I was unaware of the suspension and had no chance to move the vehicle before it was removed.
  • Alternative Action Not Taken (e.g., Moving the Vehicle to Another Bay): Given that there was an available bay on the other side of the road, it would have been reasonable for the council to have considered moving my vehicle there rather than impounding it, especially since I was not informed of the suspension at the time of parking. I believe that removing my vehicle to the pound was an unnecessarily harsh action resulting in excessive storage fees.
  • Excessive Storage Fees Due to Delayed Notification: Since I was not notified of the vehicle’s removal until a week later (letter received 27 November 2024), I was unaware that my car had been impounded and thus did not have the opportunity to prevent further storage charges. I use my vehicle on average once a week and spent two hours on the late evening of Monday 25 November believing my car had been stolen, searching surrounding streets for the vehicle in case I had misremembered the parking location, and walking to the Bow Police Station. This delay in notification has caused me undue financial hardship in the form of excessive storage fees. I request that the council take this into account and consider reducing or waiving these fees due to the delay in informing me about the vehicle’s removal.
  • Damage to vehicle: Upon picking up my vehicle and returning home I identified a long scratch along the left side of the car, along with a shorter scratch below the handle, which were not present prior to the 18 Nov 2024 and which are not visible in the photos the council employee took prior to removing my vehicle. Therefore it can be assumed that this scratch happened either during the removal (e.g., scraped by tree branches when being transported) or while in storage at the impound lot.
In light of the above points, I respectfully request that you cancel the PCN, vehicle removal, and storage fees. I believe that the circumstances surrounding this incident, including the questions surrounding appropriate suspension application procedures being followed, an unapproved suspension sign design being used, the lack of opportunity to rectify the situation, damage to the vehicle, and the financial burden caused by the delayed notification, warrant the cancellation of the associated charges.

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
« on: December 02, 2024, 10:30:08 pm »
Here is a link to the receipt image hosted on Imgur.  All the images in my previous posts were hosted on imgur and included using a BB code embed link as per the READ ME post directions, apologies if something didn't work quite right. I'll add links for the other photos of documents to the bottom of this post in case they're easier to read.
https://imgur.com/CepZsCI  

I've checked and it is the PCN evidence portal (https://towerhamlets.tarantoportal.com/) showing the outstanding PCN charge, not Trace. It shows that there is £40 still outstanding to pay on the PCN, even though I have reclaimed the vehicle. According to a sign at the pound, in Tower Hamlets storage charges go by 24h period from time of impound, with Sunday not counted. So 12:38pm Monday the 18th to before 12:38pm on Tuesday the 26th would have been 7 x £40 (eight 24h periods, minus 1 for the Sunday), whereas it would have been 8 x £40 after 12:38pm on Tuesday the 26th. I was there waiting to pick up the vehicle between 12:20pm and 12:30pm on Tuesday (earliest my work schedule would allow) and the staff member saw me waiting. There was one person at the window with a difficult case, so I was not called up and able to pay until after 12:38pm - they tried to charge me the extra £40 for it being after 12:38 and a new 24h period having started, but I pointed out I was present since before 12:30 and had been waiting in the queue, so they just charged me the £280 for storage (plus the other fees). I'll call up tomorrow to inquire why it still lists an outstanding £40 on the PCN. 

I have since found out that the suspension was for 25 car spaces "next to cycle hire station - opposite garage" for the purpose of filming. The date is listed as "18 November 2024 to 18 November 2024 at any time". The Suspension Reference Number is TTS0176903. I am still waiting to hear where the signs were posted and on which dates. I'm not sure if it's worth noting, but the first point on the Suspension Terms and Conditions is "Unless there are exceptional circumstances, no more than 10 car spaces will be approved per application per day for a suspension."
Source: https://www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/lgnl/transport_and_streets/Parking/Terms_and_conditions/Suspension-terms-and-conditions.aspx

Receipt: https://imgur.com/CepZsCI
PCN front: https://imgur.com/KJGHViX
PCN back: https://imgur.com/sShemk3
Representations info: https://imgur.com/xhypSwY
Back of representations info: https://imgur.com/oq3cJDO
Notification of vehicle removal: https://imgur.com/yLxfG2A
Vehicle damage sustained during removal/storage: https://imgur.com/2q7DML9

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
« on: November 29, 2024, 01:22:59 pm »
Sorry for my over-eagerness, two other posters had said next step for me was to draft representations so I wanted to make sure I wasn't dropping the ball.

I have contacted the filming office and the traffic tickets office to get further details regarding the specifics of the suspension, when it was applied for, when the signs were posted and where, and what specifically the sign said.

Regarding your questions re timeline (very thorough for completeness):
  • Realising vehicle was missing: Around 7:30pm 25th Nov. Realised it was impounded shortly before 9pm.
  • First contacting impound: Called pound 8:50pm on 25th Nov and emailed (8:55pm) 
  • Picking up from impound: Arrived before 12:30pm on 26 Nov. Waited in the queue and then was able to pay at 12:47 (see receipt). They tried to charge me £40 extra because it's based on 24 hour periods and the car was listed on trace.london as being checked in to the pound at 12:38, so I pointed out I was there before 12:30 and they didn't have me pay the extra £40 (this still seems to be listed as outstanding on trace.london though).
  • Received notification of impound on Nov 27th via the mail, with the letter dated as the 25th of November.


Receipt:


Notification letter:

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
« on: November 28, 2024, 10:13:50 pm »
Oh wow @Bayonet you're right. I'll definitely add that to my representations draft. Is there a precident of people having PCNs voided over that though? Definitely promising though

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
« on: November 27, 2024, 11:22:53 pm »
Thanks for all the responses and for locating the photos - I found them this morning but hadn't had a chance to post yet. Agreed that if the signs were there when I parked I won't have a case re the PCN, but good to know I can still argue that the tow was unnecessary. I also can't read what it says on the signs and whether the bay was only partially suspended (in which case the area I was in might not qualify) or fully suspended or what date the signs were posted.

Regarding the tow and the timing of the tow, I got I letter in the mail today notifying me that the car had been removed with the sentence "This letter gives notice under Regulation 12... that the London Borough of Tower Hamlets removed the above vehicle from Southern Grove on 18/11/2024 at 09:56 in accordance with Regulation 5C of the Regulations." This throws into question the timing of the tow (since the photos are timestamped differently) and whether they left any time between the PCN being given and the tow being done, which I take it would lend credibility to the tow to the pound being a disproportionate reaction compared to for example relocating the vehicle to the other side of the street.


Three main questions:
  • Regarding the details of the signage not being legible and the date the signs were posted - I take it I should get this info (by emailing tickets@towerhamlets.gov.uk?) in advance of making representations, or is this something I request in the representations themselves?
  • @H C Anderson, could you clarify what you mean by "Was the suspension underpinned by a lawful order?" From the sign I think the suspension was for filming being done at the park. Online it says that requests for suspensions must be submitted a week in advance so the council can give residents notice. It says in exceptional circumstances (examples given are police, infrastructure, or utility emergencies) 3 days notice can be done with a Emergency Surcharge. I take it if the suspension was applied for less than a week in advance this would also give me leverage since filming is not an emergency. If the suspension is for more than 10 spaces (60 meters) 10 days notice is required - the parking bay they suspended is very long so this might apply in this scenario.
  • Is there any recourse for the damage they did to my car in moving it?




Representations draft (pending additional info I'm collecting tomorrow by calling the phone number for filming suspensions):


Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to formally challenge the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) issued to my vehicle (Registration Number: LP13 JYJ) on 18 November 2024 for being parked in a partly or wholly suspended bay.
I would like to submit the following points in my representation for your review and consideration:
  • [NOTE: I'll potentially remove this once I know about when the signs were posted and on which lampposts] Uncertainty Regarding the Visibility of the Suspension Sign: I acknowledge that photos have been provided showing a suspension sign visible from the location where my vehicle was parked on the day it was removed. However, it is unclear whether this sign was present and visible at the time I parked. I did not see the suspension sign at the time of parking (prior to 18 November 2024). Given that I am not aware of the exact placement of the sign on the day in question, I respectfully request confirmation of the dates on which the suspension signs were posted.
  • No Opportunity to Rectify the Situation: According to the PCN, my vehicle first ticketed at 09:56. On 27 November 2024 I received a letter notifying me of the vehicle removal, which states that the council "removed the above vehicle from Southern Grove on 18/11/2024 at 09:56". This indicates I had no opportunity to rectify the situation between the issuance of the ticket and the removal of my vehicle. In circumstances where a parking contravention is identified, it is common practice to allow the driver an opportunity to move the vehicle if they are able to do so, or at least be informed of the contravention promptly. The lack of such an opportunity in this case seems unjust, as I was unaware of the suspension and had no chance to move the vehicle before it was removed.
  • Alternative Action Not Taken (e.g., Moving the Vehicle to Another Bay): Given that there was an available bay on the other side of the road, it would have been reasonable for the council to have considered moving my vehicle there rather than impounding it, especially since I was not informed of the suspension at the time of parking. I believe that removing my vehicle to the pound was an unnecessarily harsh action resulting in excessive storage fees.
  • Excessive Storage Fees Due to Delayed Notification: Since I was not notified of the vehicle’s removal until a week later (letter received 27 November 2024), I was unaware that my car had been impounded and thus did not have the opportunity to prevent further storage charges. I use my vehicle on average once a week and spent two hours on the late evening of Monday 25 November believing my car had been stolen, searching surrounding streets for the vehicle in case I had misremembered the parking location, and walking to the Bow Police Station. This delay in notification has caused me undue financial hardship in the form of excessive storage fees. I request that the council take this into account and consider reducing or waiving these fees due to the delay in informing me about the vehicle’s removal.
  • Damage to vehicle: Upon picking up my vehicle and returning home I identified a long scratch along the left side of the car, along with a shorter scratch below the handle, which were not present prior to the 18 Nov 2024 and which are not visible in the photos the council employee took prior to removing my vehicle. Therefore it can be assumed that this scratch happened either during the removal (e.g., scraped by tree branches when being transported) or while in storage at the impound lot.
  • Mitigating Circumstances: I am a responsible vehicle owner, adhere to parking regulations, and have a parking permit for the area the bay is in. At the time of parking I was transporting my partner who was at the time recovering from an eye surgery causing him severe light sensitivity, so my priority had been to park ASAP in a bay I knew my permit covered and to get him home. Assuming suspension signs were present at the time I parked, this situation was an unfortunate oversight, and I request that the council take into consideration the unusual circumstances in which this incident occurred. I would appreciate any leniency you can offer, given that this is a first-time occurrence.
In light of the above points, I respectfully request that you cancel the vehicle removal and storage fees. I believe that the circumstances surrounding this incident, including the lack of opportunity to rectify the situation, damage to the vehicle, and the financial burden caused by the delayed notification, warrant the cancellation of the associated charges.

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
« on: November 27, 2024, 12:12:08 am »
Thank you in advance for any help – I recognise I may not have a case here, but it’s my first time having this happen (I’ve only had the car 5 months and never had a parking ticket with any of my previous cars) and if there’s a chance of getting part of this fee back I’ll give it a go! The towing also resulted in quite a long scratch along the side of my car (might buff out, but not sure). [Edited to fix formatting]


Context: 

I have a parking permit for the area and typically park on Southern Grove because my nearby street is always packed. I was parked on another part of Southern Grove earlier on Sunday 17th, took the car out very briefly and returned to Southern Grove and chose the first available parking spot along a stretch I always park on that I know is covered by my permit. I was transporting my partner who had an eye surgery several days earlier and is super light sensitive and he was doing really badly with reflections, glare, etc in the car so my goal was to get parked and him home as soon as possible. Neither of us saw any signs regarding a parking suspension. According to the PCN, my car was ticketed Monday the 18th shortly before 10am and presumably towed shortly or immediately after because the car was checked into the THC pound at 12:38pm. I was not notified the car had been impounded and because I only use the car about once a week didn’t figure out it was taken until Monday the 25th, resulting in a ridiculously high reclaim fee. It appears that during the tow/while at THC pound there was also a long, shallow scratch along the side of the car (photo attached).  


My questions at the moment:   

  • When I went searching for the car Monday the 25th with the intention of using it, there were no longer any suspension signs up anywhere, assuming they had been there previously. Is the council required to provide me with evidence that there were indeed suspension signs up at the time I parked my car? 
  • The car was impounded for a week and I had not been notified in any way, resulting in my panicking for 2 hours thinking my car had been stolen, going to the police station, etc. Had I been notified, I would have picked the car up immediately on Monday, avoiding £280 of impound storage fees (and 2 hours of panic). It seems super unreasonable to me that they can fine you a daily rate when you haven’t even been notified they have your car – is there any way of getting out of this? I only use my car on average once a week because I prioritise walking, cycling, or public transport wherever I can. 
  • Any possibility of them being more accommodating due to the scenario with my partner’s surgery? We were arguably more distracted and prioritising getting him out of the (quite bright) sunlight that day due to the surgery recovery. 
  • What about the large scratch they left on the left side of my car? Any chance of getting anything back for this? 
  • On the “Statutory grounds for representation” sheet it says “The civil enforcement officer had not… fixed a penalty charge notice to the vehicle or handed such a notice to the person appearing to that officer to be in charge of the vehicle, before the vehicle was removed.” When I arrived at the pound lot and reclaimed my car there was no PCN on the car itself (no yellow sticky envelope), meaning I would have had no opportunity to fix my error before it got towed. Is this grounds for arguing against the fee? 


In summary, if they come back and say “yes there were signs, you should have looked harder” I get that, but the impound fee seems really unreasonable to me. Surely the daily fee incentivises them to not inform you and there should really be some type of protections around this/rules that they can’t start charging you for storage until they have notified you?


Items provided at time of picking up the car: 
At time of picking up today, I was supplied with a receipt of my payment and a copy of the PCN and a “Representations against removal of vehicle” sheet, attached below. 


PCN front: 




PCN back:  


Representations against removal of vehicle front:
<br>

Repr back: 
<br>

Scratch on car: 
<br>


Location:  https://maps.app.goo.gl/bByRn96FtnM6wgAm7

Signage at location on Nov 25:   



Thanks for any help and apologies for any formatting issues - first time posting here and first time using imgur.

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