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Messages - sbarclay19

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1
WE WIN!!! :D  Huge thanks to Hippocrates for support well beyond the call of duty on this!

2
Appeal has been rejected:
https://imgur.com/a/GAzHXCT

Frustratingly, but not unexpectedly, they don't address several of the points raised in the appeal.

I know there's no guarantee, but is there a reasonable chance of winning at tribunal? And if so, what should I do next?

Thanks in advance!

3
Many thanks, I'll fire that in now.

4
I know it. But does the driver? We need to see the PCN please.

Both PCN pages uploaded here:
https://imgur.com/a/ma6tEQe

Cheers.

5
Oh, and location is simply given as "VICTORIA ROAD" with the time and date.

6
Hi, thanks. PCN is QT09758337
VRM: DV73 KVJ

Alternative link to download the sign, if helpful: https://w-si.link/amyZ2EVbnG4rhJhBX

7
Was about to pay a 47J (Stopped on a restricted bust stop or stand) - I honestly didn't know someone couldn't get out of the car even when there's nothing around.

But here's an interesting one. There are CCTV signs up. But on the bus stop itself, the clearway sign is so bleached from the sun that it's almost white, not yellow, and the red and blue "no stopping" sign is completely gone.

Is this a decent grounds to appeal?

https://imgur.com/a/lb36FBk

Cheers!

8
The Flame Pit / What contraventions can be covered by CCTV?
« on: September 11, 2024, 11:25:16 am »
Hi all,

Just been pinged by a 47j (stopping at a Bus Stop) when my wife jumped out of a car quickly and didn't realise it was a clearway. Guess that's fair enough.

I was aware that CCTV can cover yellow boxes, red routes and bus lanes. But I was surprised they can use it for bus STOPS.

Is there a definitive list anywhere of what contraventions councils can use CCTV for? Cheers.

9
The POPLA appeals page requires you to give details of the incident, and that includes details of who did what.

Re: the street, I believe the law regarding this requires that the time and location are marked on the PCN. But if the location is wrong then how can the charge apply? It's like saying "We're charging you for parking in Doncaster even though the bill says Sheffield"?

10
Hi gang,

So... the debt collection letter came today - again noting the wrong street on it.

Do I ignore or reply?

Thanks as always!

11
I know, the street name thing really rankles, as it was the central point

I felt I had to admit to being the driver, as the POPLA asked for a plain English description of the events, and it felt unnatural to mention "the driver" in the third person all the time.

Afraid I can't remember how much PoFA stuff I mentioned - maybe not at all, it didn't feel very relevant to my case, and I thought I had several other stronger planks of argument to rely on.

If I wanted to persevere, what's the next step? Wait until they take me to court, or do I instigate action?


12
Lost this one, lads. Don't really feel like spending more time on this, even if it would have a decent chance in court.

Just a bit disappointed about POPLA's decision, given how identical it was that was to another case. Doesn't feel very fair. :(

Regardless, really appreciate the time you all took to look into this for me.

-----------------------

Assessor summary of your case
The appellant has raised the following grounds of appeal: • They could not drop off their daughter outside the Flip Out venue, so they dropped her off at the end of Matisse Road. • They visited McDonalds and the nearby Prince Regent Road until it was time to collect their daughter however, she was not where they agreed to meet and eventually received a phone call to say that their daughter was running late. • The onsite warden took photographs of the vehicle after the phone call, and their daughter returned to the vehicle around two minutes after the images were taken. They left the site at this point. • They believed they were on a public highway and there were no markings to indicate they were on private land. • The vehicle brake lights were on, as can be seen in the contravention photographs and they did not cause obstruction whilst on the site. In their comments to the parking operator’s evidence, the appellant has reiterated their grounds for appeal in further detail, saying that the roadway is Matisse Road and not Holloway Street and the site map supplied the parking operator has the incorrect roadway name, with the appellant’s vehicle incorrectly marked on this site map. The appellant has also reiterated that no images have been provided to show road markings to indicate where the public highway ends and where the private land begins. The appellant comments further that they were only on the site for two minutes, which is less than the five-minute guideline for motorists to give due consideration of their situation. The appellant has provided the following evidence to support their appeal: • A screenshot of their phone log to show calls with their daughter. • A screenshot of the Royal Mail website. • Two screenshots of their detailed movements on the date in question. • A photograph of the vehicle, showing the brake lights are on. • A photograph of the front of the vehicle on the site. • A screenshot of the google map image showing Matisse Road.

Assessor supporting rational for decision
When assessing an appeal POPLA considers if the operator has issued the parking charge notice correctly and if the driver has complied with the terms and conditions for the use of the car park. The parking operator has provided photographs of the signs, stating that the site is private land and no parking is permitted. The signs also state that a £100 PCN will be issued to any motorist who breaches the terms and conditions. Having considered the photographic images provided by the parking operator, the vehicle stayed on a site where parking was not permitted and therefore, the PCN has been issued. As part of their comments to the parking operator’s case file, the appellant has highlighted that they were on the site for less than the five-minute consideration period, which the parking operator’s images support. The British Parking Association (BPA) has a code of practice, which sets the standards for its parking operators. The appellant is correct that section 13.1 of the Code requires parking operators to allow the driver a period of five minutes to read the signage and decide if they are going to stay or go if the site is one where parking is permitted. Section 13.4 of the Code goes on to say that unauthorised motorists will not be entitled to the minimum time period of 5 minutes for a consideration period in spaces designated for specific users or where parking is not allowed. I have considered the appellant’s photographs of the vehicle and whilst I do not dispute they were picking up their daughter, as they have parked on a site where parking is not permitted, a consideration period does not apply. I acknowledge the appellant says that there were no road markings to indicate parking was not permitted. In their comments to the parking operator’s case file, the appellant has raised that they were at Matisse Road and not Holloway Street, and the site map does not accurately show where they were parked. The British Parking Association (BPA)’s code of practice sets the standards by which its members must abide by. Section 19.1 of the Code of Practice states that signs must be provided to make it easy for motorists to find out what the terms and conditions are. Section 19.3 continues that signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle. Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand. In its evidence, the parking operator has provided photographs of the onsite signs, stating that the site is private land, where parking is not permitted and the PCN fee is prominently displayed. The site map shows me that 12 signs are displayed across the car park, which is suitable considering the layout of the site. The signs are positioned at a height as to not be obstructed by vehicles, which makes them easy to read I have reviewed the appellant’s screenshots and whilst I note they believe they were parked elsewhere, the parking operator’s images show me three signs are displayed within close proximity to where the vehicle was parked, including one directly next to the vehicle. I can also see from the parking operator images and site map that the appellant was parked on the pedestrian crossing at the site. As such, it is clear the appellant was parked on the parking operator’s land. Whilst I appreciate there are no road markings to indicate parking is not permitted, there is no requirement for the landowner or the parking operator to apply road markings on a car park. I would also like to highlight that the vehicle was parked on top of a zebra crossing, which is to be used by pedestrians only. I am satisfied from the evidence provided by the parking operator that the signage is conspicuous and clearly outlines the terms of parking on the site. I am satisfied the motorist was afforded ample opportunity to review the terms. In their comments to the parking operator’s evidence, the appellant has reiterated their grounds for appeal in further detail. Whilst I appreciate the appellant’s extensive comments, I have already addressed these grounds as part of my assessment. POPLA’s role is to assess if the parking operator has issued the charge in accordance with the conditions of the contract. As the terms and conditions of the car park have not been met, I conclude that the parking operator has issued the PCN correctly, and the appeal is refused.

13
Thanks everyone for their help on this so far.

This has now gone to POPLA stage. I had put in my appeal based on the main grounds that:
a) They've used the wrong road name on the PCN, giving 4 sources to prove this - including the council's own map records.
b) The road markings of what is public/private land is not clear, something that was mentioned in a previous POPLA case at this site (see upthread).
c) The signage wasn't clear or readable from the driver's position.

I also explained the reasoning for the driver being there re: picking up a daughter from a party who didn't turn up at the meeting time agreed, a very similar case to the one @b789 mentions above.

Regarding the company's statement below, is there anything else I should do to rebuff any of it? In particular, I note the "no invitation to form a contract" defence is sometimes quoted, but in other threads some people claim POPLA won't accept that line. Is it worth mentioning, and - if so - how do I quote chapter and verse?

Cheers!

Quote
"The contract that we are seeking payment on has arisen from a breach of the notified terms and conditions of parking stated on the signs that the landowner has requested us to erect and permitted to remain erected at this location. At this site, we erected signage to identify the private land and the parking restrictions that applied within it. The evidence shows that the signs are written in an intelligible language and are legible. The terms and conditions, and the potential consequences of non-adherence to the terms have been made fully available "No parking at any time. Private land, strictly no parking, waiting or loading at any time, unauthorised parking will result in the issue of a £100 parking charge notice".
The charge was issued because the appellant's vehicle was parked in a no parking area,  which is a direct contravention of the terms and conditions of parking. The photographic evidence shows vehicle registration DV73KVJ in a stationary position, within proximity to a visible notice on display, which stated NO PARKING AT ANY TIME in large bold letters.
The appellant’s comments about why the vehicle was parked in the area are acknowledged, however,  the appellant parked on private land governed by therms and conditions. If upon arriving on site, the appellant reviewed the signage and was unsure whether the terms and conditions applied to them, they had an option to call our office using the number displayed via signage to seek advice or to leave the site and find alternative parking.
We would also like to advise that a motorist would not be able to exempt themselves from the terms and condition of use by remaining inside the vehicle, as this does not stop the terms and conditions being valid. Signage on site makes clear that no parking, waiting or loading at any time is permitted on the site in question. It was then the appellant's responsibility to ensure they read and understand the site's terms before deciding to park. By instead choosing to ignore the terms and remain in a no parking at any time area, the appellant contravened the parking contract, and this has resulted in them being liable for a parking charge."

14
Oh, and with regard to the site map they quote above, this is a bit special! Some of the "stripy bits" are under their jurisdiction, and some aren't!


https://imgur.com/a/V9YClrp

15
I put in my appeal (as registered keeper only), listing the reasons listed by @DWMB2 and adding that the incorrect location had been stated also.

Appeal rejected - looks like we have a fight on our hands :-\

This is their reply:

Quote
The charge was issued because your vehicle was parked in enforcement zone in strictly no parking at any time area, which is a
direct contravention of the advertised on the signage terms and conditions of parking.

This is further supported by the warden’s photographic evidence, showing that the vehicle has been observed not being parked
under the terms of the car park, where there were visible notices on display, indicating that there is no parking in the area. The
terms were adequately brought to your attention and if you decide to remain on site and do not review the full terms and
conditions of parking, we cannot be held responsible for a breach of the parking contract.

In response to your dispute about the location where you parked at the time of the contravention, I submit that the car park
belongs to a private landowner with a business address Holloway Street, Hounslow, TW3 1AA. Therefore, by parking on this
particular piece of land, you became subject to the parking restrictions stipulated on the signage displayed prominently within
the site. Provided is also evidence of a sitemap confirming our jurisdiction - the area we monitor is highlighted in red. The
warden’s photos show that your vehicle is parked off the side of the public road, which demonstrates that it is parked on the
land that we manage. This is also demonstrated by the signs in sight of your vehicle. The photographs show that you were
parked next to one of these signs, and therefore, you were adequately informed that this was private land. The you were made
aware of the applicable terms, and therefore, if you decide to remain on site and do not review the full terms and conditions of
parking, the operator cannot be held responsible for a breach of the parking contract.

Pursuant to the guidance set out in the Supreme Court’s decision in ParkingEye v Beavis and in accordance with the BPA Code of
Practice, a reasonable charge would be £100.00.

Please be informed that there is no requirement for a parking operator to issue a parking charge on the day in question, and
therefore, it is the operator's decision if they wish to issue a Notice to Driver or a Notice to Keeper. Notice to Keeper issued via
post without a Notice to Driver having previously being affixed to a vehicle should be issued in the period of 14 days beginning
with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.

For a Notice to Keeper to be compliant with PoFA 2012, as detailed in section 9(2)(f) "warn the keeper that if, after the period of
28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given— (i) the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified
under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and (ii) the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current
address for service for the driver, the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to
recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid." I am satisfied that the Notice to Keeper correctly conveys
this information. It states the keeper has 'If after 29 days we have not received full payment or driver details', which is the
equivalent of '28 days beginning the day after the that on which the notice is given'. As the evidence does not indicate that you,
the keeper, provided us with the relevant information to transfer liability to the driver, you therefore, assume liability for the charge, and under the POFA Act 2012, Schedule 4, we are pursuing you for the unpaid parking charge and remain compliant with
legislation and codes of practice whilst doing so.

Further evidence demonstrates that the Notice to Keeper contains two images showing the vehicle being parked on site. The
PCN does not need to specifically state the times of parking the PCN relate to as long as it is clear from the online photographic
evidence, which I am satisfied it is.

For the reasons noted above, I conclude that the PCN has been issued correctly. Accordingly, I must refuse your appeal.
Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the motorist to read the signs and adhere to the terms and conditions of the site.

To avoid incurring further administration cost, please arrange your remittance of £60 within 14 days from the date above (we
reset the clock). Please note that after this time the Parking Charge Notice will rise to £100.00 if you pay within 28 days from
the date above and to £160 once we pass the details of your case to debt Recovery Company.
You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure. You can make an appeal to POPLA - The Independent Appeal
Service by completing appeal form online on http://www.popla.co.uk within 28 days.
By law, we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services provides an alternative dispute resolution service that
would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute
resolution service. As such should you wish to appeal then you must do so to POPLA, as explained above.

You now have a number of options;
1. Pay the Parking Charge at the price of £60.00 within 14 days.
2. If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies due via our debt recovery procedures and may proceed with
Court action against you.
3. If you disagree with the appeal decision you can make an appeal to POPLA - The Independent Appeal Service by completing
appeal form online on http://www.popla.co.uk within 28 days.
4. You can pay or appeal – you cannot do both.
Please, note that if you wish to appeal to POPLA, you will lose the right to pay the charge at the discounted rate of £60.00, and
should POPLA’s decision not go in your favour you will be required to pay the full amount of £100.00.
Please see further information related to your parking ticket on our website: www.paypps.co.uk

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