Free Traffic Legal Advice
General discussion => The Flame Pit => Topic started by: Hippocrates on June 13, 2024, 09:36:27 pm
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Ok, I've removed the blog posts and added the beta testing warning banner for now. I will have a think about how I can make this work. If anyone has any suggestions on what I could do to make it work let me know.
As per my PM, start by reading all the decisions on the "adjudications - notable cases" tab of the PCN spreadsheet that have been promulgated in the last six months or so, and try and build all those scenarios into the tool.
Also you might have to have a look at how the NIP wizard used to work on pepipoo, you'll have to trawl through the web archive though as it's been offline for some time now.
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@thepcnguy from a quick look at least some of the information provided is outright wrong, so I'd suggest you want to put a big banner at the top stating this is tool is in beta testing and should not be relied upon by anyone for any purpose, and nobody should challenge a PCN based on the information it generates.
That's not to say that it doesn't have potential, but some of the information given would actually harm the motorist's chances on appeal. I do not (and will not) have the time to go through every possible scenario and permutation for you, and the other problem is that it would need to be constantly maintained: tactics change all the time as councils change their processes and policies, find new ways to mess things up, the tribunal jurisprudence eveloes and so on.
Ultimately I very much doubt you'll be able to tell anyone that they can actually rely on the tool, it might eventually get to the point where it can create a good starting point, but I think you'll always need a qualified person to review the outputs. It might be helpful if it could do something similar to what the NIP wizard used to do on Pepipoo, i.e. gather all the information for a post on this site and then give us a concise summary of the key stuff we need to know to be able to give proper advice.
Ok, I've removed the blog posts and added the beta testing warning banner for now. I will have a think about how I can make this work. If anyone has any suggestions on what I could do to make it work let me know.
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@thepcnguy from a quick look at least some of the information provided is outright wrong, so I'd suggest you want to put a big banner at the top stating this is tool is in beta testing and should not be relied upon by anyone for any purpose, and nobody should challenge a PCN based on the information it generates.
That's not to say that it doesn't have potential, but some of the information given would actually harm the motorist's chances on appeal. I do not (and will not) have the time to go through every possible scenario and permutation for you, and the other problem is that it would need to be constantly maintained: tactics change all the time as councils change their processes and policies, find new ways to mess things up, the tribunal jurisprudence eveloes and so on.
Ultimately I very much doubt you'll be able to tell anyone that they can actually rely on the tool, it might eventually get to the point where it can create a good starting point, but I think you'll always need a qualified person to review the outputs. It might be helpful if it could do something similar to what the NIP wizard used to do on Pepipoo, i.e. gather all the information for a post on this site and then give us a concise summary of the key stuff we need to know to be able to give proper advice.
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Hi all, I’ve built a free tool that I think could be helpful for people to start fighting their PCNs. The tool is:
pcnpal.co.uk
It’s in its infancy so there are still bugs to work out and features to add. Some of the templates we provide probably aren’t optimal so it would be great to get some feedback on what can be improved.
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I attended the Court of Appeal hearing re Beavis v Parking Eye and sat next to Patrick Troy. I think he had to wake me up a few times. Quite a few other famous campaigners were there too......not implying I am famous or even was at the time.
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Who remembers this...?
(https://i.ibb.co/NdYm63Ct/Pepipoo-windscreen-flyers.png) (https://ibb.co/NdYm63Ct)
Is there an FTLA version covering Council/Private that could be used to spread awareness and encourage appeals?
No - not least for the reason that CP and I (as the owners of FTLA) haven’t approved it.
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Who remembers this...?
(https://i.ibb.co/NdYm63Ct/Pepipoo-windscreen-flyers.png) (https://ibb.co/NdYm63Ct)
Is there an FTLA version covering Council/Private that could be used to spread awareness and encourage appeals?
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https://youtu.be/HZRybHyQ91I
More Kingston incompetence.
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Back to Kingston - yet again!
The infamous YBJ in Kingston Road New Malden.
https://t.co/Xx9WebQYix
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Ole torero, muchos cohones
(https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji109.png)(https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji122.png)(https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji123.png)(https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji109.png)(https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji122.png)(https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji123.png)
https://www.itv.com/news/london/2025-08-19/council-refunds-485000-for-wrongly-fining-drivers-in-the-bus-lane
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En garde, Porthos !
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Depending on how much it would cost to deploy such a programme, does it need to be commercially viable? Much as support for FTLA would be appreciated, it is currently financed by me (others do much of the running of the site though).
Hello,
How can members support the forum please? I was a user and supporter of pepipoo and think this forum is a very helpful and useful site. Thanks.
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Back to Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames. If you receive a ticket for a bus stop, please do not pay it!
https://youtu.be/kNIExXA0JyU
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Well, I was wearing my silly hat in Waitrose tonight and have attracted more people to this site. They just do not how to fight for obvious reasons. Did a couple of videos too which I will publish in due course.
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Demo 7th April:
https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/london-councils-pcn-rise-in-charges-and-fees/msg64903/#msg64903
Please come if you are free.
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The impulses behind my question were as follows:
1. To encourage more motorists to fight their tickets - the general public. I did not wish to imply any direct involvement of this site or any individuals either.
2. To cut through the general apathy of most recipients - for whatever reason - who simply pay up at the first stage.
I have some ideas which would utilise media etc.
On a personal note, of course I am available to do more appeals if requested. I also know my limitations and strengths. ;) And, I am improving. 8)
I was planning to post something on Instagram once one of my appeals is concluded to raise awareness among friends and family (I’m confident of success, thanks to the excellent advice received! 😊).
I’d like to reference the site if that’s okay. If there’s any standard messaging you’d recommend including, I’m happy to take suggestions—I actually found this thread while looking for guidance on that.
One key point I’ll be highlighting is the time required to appeal. Unfortunately, for some, this can be the biggest barrier to pursuing an appeal, and it’s important to set realistic expectations. Otherwise, a rushed or unprepared appeal could end up being more costly in the long run.
Any thoughts most welcome!
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Back to Kingston. Due to pressure from a certain person, they have now moved the camera to capture the reverse of all vehicles. This now ensures fairness to all and the likelihood of knocking into a lady with a pram or a cyclist is reduced! 8)
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so may be a fresh thread would be better?
Go for it.
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I'm hoping to begin with this will triage at the first instance, and end by creating a post or minimally a body of text that can be posted in a post. The text will have hidden tags so that it can be fed back in at a later date to continue.
I've attached a VERY skeletal flow chart for members to comment on. I'll keep it up to date after each iteration, so may be a fresh thread would be better?
Forgive Powerpoint it's issues converting to pdf, I'll sort that later.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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You need a front end/ triage process - what happened? when? leading people very gently through the process
You still need oversight, the general public are extremely unreliable in answering questions, no matter how simple they may be. Add to that confusion over what a document is (i.e. PCN, FPN, parking charge notice that COULD be a PCN because it has the same letters), etc.
The design I had in mind was a flexible (graphical) wizard designer that could then produce a list of tabulated answers, simple conditionals to show/hide steps or go to a certain place in the wizard... so that those that know far more could actually design said questions and get the answers they want. It never got past the file upload/simple case preview stage as university comes first!
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Yeah the idea was that the process would start simply and given the answers would branch where required.
Shall I start a proper thread for this in the flame pit and we can put the current state of play on the first page?
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You need a front end/ triage process - what happened? when? leading people very gently through the process, however slow it may seem to a seasoned user. An example from real life is the software that ambulance services use, which features a preset menu of questions that must be asked of all callers. If someone calls about someone else, the first question shown to the calltaker is "Is the patient conscious and breathing?" An answer of "Yes" triggers one response and a second question to ask is shown to the calltaker, "no" automatically identifies the closest available ambulance in the background and dispatches it towards the approximate location. I won't go into details of how that is obtained, but it is. The question is still asked if the person can be heard shouting. The questions plod through everything, but only easy questions are asked. It's just a question of making the software work round the user as smoothly as possible.
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Judging by the speed of responses from SP83 and the OP I'm guessing you have some boiler plated responses prepared, this would be a good starting point.
PM me if your interested/agree that we need something to take up the 'easy win' tickets. @Southpaw82 : If this is to progress the best place for it would be as part of this site, and for that we'd need the owners permission. It's possible to host it elsewhere, if required, but would be better within this sites' mechanism for maintenance etc.
Whilst I have toyed with (and mocked up a wizard like site with upload facility), the biggest barrier is the end user and their comprehension of the paperwork or situation in front of them. Some of the key timings / information need people to accurately answer questions and (for instance) know what stage they are at.
Unless you're getting AI/OCR involved with scans or pictures, as demonstrated by threads on here sometimes not getting the details required even 4-5-6 posts in, the weakest link is going to be the user.
Perhaps a better option would be for the user to start the process, it to be moderated/validated for the stage they are at, then allow the automated system to continue?
If you do need any help just shout.
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Sounds good to me.
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I haven't read the whole thread, but did read the first few pages.
The first thing that struck me was that the real question is how are the PPCs able to raise 40,000 invoices a day (not my figure, but one of the experts here) that rely on the threat of legal action to extort money from individuals? And then, when it gets to the actual legal part of it, many, if not all, discontinue. I realise I'm preaching to the converted here, but the answer to your question is simply 'publicity'.
There was talk of a website to help channel people down the correct route, and I remember Pepipoo used to have a similar 'calculator' for NIPs etc. Looking at JUST PPCs and their increasingly automated processes, it appears that in order to rebuff them we need an automated process also.
As it happens I've been writing software for over 30 years and could probably get something rudimentary together fairly quickly.
Judging by the speed of responses from SP83 and the OP I'm guessing you have some boiler plated responses prepared, this would be a good starting point.
PM me if your interested/agree that we need something to take up the 'easy win' tickets. @Southpaw82 : If this is to progress the best place for it would be as part of this site, and for that we'd need the owners permission. It's possible to host it elsewhere, if required, but would be better within this sites' mechanism for maintenance etc.
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Bus stop outside Post Office, Surbiton.
https://youtu.be/GNwWcIT8oeQ
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Bus stop opposite Sainsburys, Surbiton. Sunburnt. :D
https://youtu.be/Mnv0YegvJs0
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Bus stop outside Waitrose, Surbiton. A job for Superman. :D
https://youtu.be/QyIzGsItKBg
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I heard with great sadness yesterday that someone has just paid his PCN for the infamous bus lane at Eden Street Kingston.
https://youtu.be/dmo43oExMxs
Sadly, The Mugged Club has another member. :(
Dear Mr Kirsch
I attach several videos which were taken yesterday afternoon in the space of 20 minutes.
I kook forward to your response as to what you are going to do about this unfair discrimination.
I also witnessed a car cutting up a cyclist by performing an illegal left turn from Eden Street into Union Street and I believe you do not enforce this by camera. Not only was this illegal but also the car reversed into the main road (Eden Street) in order to complete the move.
Yours sincerely
James Bond
Videos:
https://youtu.be/WUMGYkfzdj0
https://youtu.be/ndAdK60EaNo
https://youtu.be/wd8-slu5dk4
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Leahurst Road, Lewisham. Yesterday, I managed to save one guy £130 by stopping him.
https://youtu.be/jyCB3hctV5c
They have added new signs; but, the warning signs are still rather small. So, this is still worth a fight.
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I heard with great sadness yesterday that someone has just paid his PCN for the infamous bus lane at Eden Street Kingston.
https://youtu.be/dmo43oExMxs
Sadly, The Mugged Club has another member. :(
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I surmise that my first outing with the shirt may have played a part in one of these decisions:
2240406384 :o (Not even allowed to sit at the bench)
2240418124 not even mentioned. :'(
2240417904 these were completely re-arranged and were supposed to be consolidated for a hearing in November. :o
Never a dull moment in this game. :)
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The problem is that the general person in the street (yes, pun intended) believes that a case won at the Tribunal is case law. I have had very detailed discussions with such (a friend) last week.
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But, don't be afraid to post for advice before taking action. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing... I've seen a good few cases where people have fired off an appeal having read a bunch of what they thought were similar cases, without posting here, then by the time they do post here it turns out they have inadvertently harmed their own case.
We've seen that a lot in the council forum too.
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All you need to do is read through some of the postings in the council tickets forum; if you want to challenge private tickets, read through the private tickets section. there's a lot to. tak in. Don't be afraid to post on here
That last bit especially. Reading as much as you can is a very good idea (especially the 'Read This First' posts...), as that ideally means you have at least a rudimentary idea of some of the concepts involved before posting, which will make your post more informative, and as such elicit better advice in response.
But, don't be afraid to post for advice before taking action. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing... I've seen a good few cases where people have fired off an appeal having read a bunch of what they thought were similar cases, without posting here, then by the time they do post here it turns out they have inadvertently harmed their own case.
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All you need to do is read through some of the postings in the council tickets forum; if you want to challenge private tickets, read through the private tickets section. there's a lot to. tak in. Don't be afraid to post on here, there's always someone clueless like me who will give the wrong answer! And a lot more who will put me right..
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- Your stats like we overturn 90% of PCNs = hope
- Your involvement / leading / expertise / musketeering attitude is obviously a huge factor
I’ve always wanted to fight a rejected appeal but have been too scared / no head space to learn what to do so maybe team the hope with clear step by step guide and offer to sense check a case at first like suggested.
I’ve thoroughly enjoyed my interactions with P so far - and enjoying making the council work for their money if the case should go their way.
I hope to find my own vigilantly style purpose in future too 😂
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I assume the figures for outside London are similar?
They're basically the same, 10 million or so PCNs a year and only 50-60k appeals. The only difference is that they're spread across some 300 authorities rather than 34.
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@cp8759 I could not get a logo of a wizard for the reverse side so I used a Spartan icon instead. I will do the other video shortly in Surrey. Hopefully at Claremont Gardens as there is a natural amphitheatre there. I assume the figures for outside London are similar?
BTW, I will be wearing mine most of this week at Furnival Street. 8)
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I have got a shirt for our administrator too.
There's two of us, but I'm not sure how keen @Southpaw82 is on getting one?
Be a great one to wear in court 🤣
good job they aren't trousers as they would need 3 legs. (not a reference to Rolf)
🤐
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good job they aren't trousers as they would need 3 legs. (not a reference to Rolf)
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I have got a shirt for our administrator too.
There's two of us, but I'm not sure how keen @Southpaw82 is on getting one?
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Was the queue at the High Street kebab shop that long that it was quicker to go to Greece to get one??
Hey Roy. No pun intended; but, it was a busman's holiday for the most part! Violin + cases + appeals. :) Some swimming, sunning et al.
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I have got a shirt for our administrator too.
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Was the queue at the High Street kebab shop that long that it was quicker to go to Greece to get one??
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https://youtu.be/wqP_S7I38ng
I love that you are in an actual forum in that video!
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Surely we should target the whole of the UK rather than just London specifically?
It is in the text. I will do another one tomorrow before I fly back. It has been a hectic break.
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Surely we should target the whole of the UK rather than just London specifically?
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https://youtu.be/wqP_S7I38ng
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Ultimately, IMO, people just don't have the time to fight. But if provided with a free recourse system that was made abundantly clear from the offset, with the option of triage to weed out the no hopes, and if that was regulated to make sure it was clear on every single PCN, that's the only way more would be encouraged.
Sadly this is true, especially in the case of private invoices. If I add up the time used to bring a recent DCBL saga to a close it's along the lines of:
- Informal appeal 30m
- POPLA appeal 60m
- Filing and ignoring 8 DCBL threats - 8m
- Initial response to court filing - 30m
- Understanding , drafting and filing full defence - 180m
- Being on hold to CNBC - 45m
- Tidying up (confirmation of discontinuance, removal of data request) - 20m
Total: almost 5 hours
If I consider the original invoice was for £40, I am effectively working for about £8 an hour. I would do better to pay the invoice and do a half day shift at McDonald's.
There really should be some kind of financial jeopardy for the PPC/agent.
Personally for me the principle is worth more than the time/money, so I will always fight. But if I was more pragmatic, as most normal people are, I would probably have to conclude that it's not worth fighting the whole way.
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Thought I'd add my two pennies to this conversation.
I've just had a CEL PCN appeal upheld, thanks entirely to advice from this forum.
Years ago, when less risk averse, younger and crucially - had no kids, mortgage nor a serious job and therefore had more time - I would fight every ticket I received. With the help of Pepipoo, and some self learning, I managed to win every single PCN battle. Brilliantly, I also told family members and they to, time willing, won several appeals.
I remember winning those appeals at The Angel, then going for a celebratory pint each time at (I think?) The York, just up the road from the appeals office. It was often easy. Rarely did the issuing party turn up, and sometimes they didn't even send the paperwork. They even on one occasion sent a representation for a different offence, car and date....
I was always 99% sure I'd win going into that office.
Thing is, those days I lived in London, and could afford the time to attend. Several years later, and faced the option of £60 - £100 versus the effort of going to London, even to win, the fine feels like the sensible choice.
It was only really that I found myself hacked off with the injustice of it all that I Google'd Pepipoo after all these years and followed the paper trail here.
I guess my point is this - busy people (which is most people) would rather through gritted teeth suck up a penalty. They don't know what recourse they have, and even when they do, it feels too much of an effort.
I've confused council issued notices with private notices above purposely, because therein lies a problem. The whole system needs full reform, with a single penalty fare set by central Government, with a single appeal place for both private and council issued PCNs. It's wholly ridiculous to expect the average motorist to be aware of their rights dependent upon where and when they received a PCN.
Ah, but how can Government impose a flat fine for PCNs I hear the cowboys cry? Easy, amend the act to state that EVERY issuing body must be a regulated body and therefore adhere to centrally set fines and standards, with centrally set appeals processes. No sign up, no authority. And penalties for organisations that issue PCNs who haven't signed up. If a vehicle is parked illegally and can't be removed, it's a police matter (which will swiftly get the police on board with encouraging those that issue PCNs to sign up).
Returning to the issue of whether or not a recipient of a PCN chooses to challenge - under a regulated agreement, the appellant is offered recourse at the collective expense of those who (must) join the regulated scheme. This has to follow a process of issuance, and right to appeal. If the appellant wins, it is an the expense of the issuing company (including travel costs, time off work etc). You have to make it clear, and cost neutral, for the person who receive the ticket. If it worked properly, you could even have a triage centre (which is where the more experienced members here could monetise it) to inform the recipient of the likely chances of success - which is essentially what you good folk here do for free.
Ultimately, IMO, people just don't have the time to fight. But if provided with a free recourse system that was made abundantly clear from the offset, with the option of triage to weed out the no hopes, and if that was regulated to make sure it was clear on every single PCN, that's the only way more would be encouraged.
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I have lots of friends who always just pay up because they believe it's risky to fight and just gets more expensive. Also they do not have time to fight as it seems so complicated. If it's possible to have general instructions? Info like, how many people win, to make them believe it's possible and not too risky. Encouragement to do so would help. Apps like the neighbourhood app always say, it's not worth it, just pay up :-\
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Lately I have witnessed several people conducting their own appeals and winning. Anyways, I am having a special T shirt made next month and will wear it at the Tribunal. ;D
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For me, to much is done of forum when people represent. I can understand the reason for this and am guilty of doing the same when i have represented people. But the knowledge we have is denied people coming here for help. We should endeavour to make sure that the arguments being run are set out in every thread
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I did start work on such a piece of software in the past, but quickly hit issues, lack of time etc and couldn't progress it further. I guess the question is what do we want? A full case management/tracking software, probably probably with "here's the deadline for your appeal, and here's what's worked for that location/code/authority before", or something much more lightweight?
It's a lot of work to do and maintain voluntarily though, I don't have enough experience of the intricacies of the legislation to create a "quick steps" to identify issues with the notices, or to flag up key cases etc. If people are willing to work with me, I'm happy to revitilise the project, with the caveat I'll only have a matter of hours a week to work on it so it won't be a quick job.
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On my weekly visits to Furnival Street, I do it the old-fashioned way - word of mouth. Actually, when next in Kos, I will get a T shirt printed with ftla on it and wear that! Serious. Three adjudicators have witnessed my "Licence to Thrill" shirt. I did not show them the back: 007. But the admin. staff have seen it.
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Agree that a tool to guide the person through the process and determine timelines would be one of the best things to get more greenhorns to enter the ring.
In the absence of an app (which will be prohibitively expensive) a simple website after the style of a flow diagram could work. e.g.:
Form A uses simple questions to identify if private or council, if council it directs to Form C
Form C uses simple questions to determine which legislation it is under
etc.
etc.
(e.g.) it has been identified that it is council, under TMA2004, the person has received but not replied to a NTO, the NTO date is XX/XX/XX.
The person can be advised that they have until XX/XX/XX to submit an appeal to the council ("Add this to your phone calendar now"), and that although it is likely a discount period will be reoffered, it might not. etc. Host these documents (xxx, xxx, xxx, xxx) with an image host using this guide, start a post in this forum, ideally ASAP. Copy and paste this text in your post: (the system will generate all of the known facts in a standardised format so easy for forum members to see where it's at)
This still relies on manual interaction on the forum but TBH it seems to me like anything that gives auto-advice on appeals is fraught with pitfalls.
This kind of thing could be done on a website, with pretty basic HTML and JavaScript, and would require little development or ongoing cost.
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New Petitions Committee still not formed.
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Very recently I spoke with an appellant at the Tribunal who had won a Cox Lane Bus Gate case. When I guessed it was that location he asked if I were an adjudicator! Sitting in my usual corner, with my laptop open, I just said I helped people. Quite a few people I meet win their cases - I can't say how many. Statistics, of course, are by their very nature open to an elasticity of interpretation. 8) And many people haven't heard of pepipoo or ftla.
As for "laziness", I cannot agree though I often question one's psychological reasons for doing all this. :o :-\
I do believe in fate, especially when I consider a couple of chance meetings in the last three years which have resulted in some good publicity. More to follow in due course. ;)
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I don't think we necessarily need more representatives. As admirable it is that people spend their free time helping other people, i think that can coexist with self representation. After all, it's only fairly recently, with the hard work of cp in particular, that the majority of cases on Pepipoo were getting representation.
The success rate for those who are represented is way, way higher than self-represented litigants, probably over 90%.
We do lose the odd case here or there, but it tends to be the odd exception where someone's taken on a marginal case or where the discount was lost anyway so there was nothing to lose in giving it a go.
Of course the vast majority of people never post anything at all and just represent themselves based on arguments they've found on here (or previously on pepipoo), but we have seen plenty of cases where someone has represented themselves and they've lost a winnable case. In fact in the last few days I've had two people who contacted me because they were so confident of the arguments they'd found that they'd taken it upon themselves to represent others, and they lost.
Fundamentally I think anyone who would like to be represented should be able to get representation.
Part of the reason why I like representing people is because I'm naturally lazy: if I see a case I know a winning argument or strategy for, it's far, far easier for me to run the argument myself than to try and explain to a novice how to go about it: it would take far too long and they wouldn't be as effective anyway.
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I don't think we necessarily need more representatives. As admirable it is that people spend their free time helping other people, i think that can coexist with self representation. After all, it's only fairly recently, with the hard work of cp in particular, that the majority of cases on Pepipoo were getting representation.
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All I wish for is for the incorporation of para. 7(6) into moving traffic law. As cp8759 discussed with me the last time we met, the whole system may well collapse, which is not my objective. ;D Frankly, the discrepancies re dates etc can be kept as the clowns swap and change anyway. In the last year, RBK have had three incarnations of their bus lane PCNs.
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Be careful what you wish for. If the TMA 2004 applied across the board, many of the arguments we use would disappear. CP8759
Which is why I suggested a collective approach to deciding what needs changing, what needs standardizing, what needs retaining and I would add a very considered approach to the law of unintended consequences.
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To homogenise London Bus Lane legislation with Moving Traffic legislation. - Hippocrates' petition.
I think that this hints at an alternative way forward. As Mr Mustard & CP point out above (replies#9 & #11), the disparity in legislation governing the various types of PCN and ensuing enforcement needs urgently addressing.
Be careful what you wish for. If the TMA 2004 applied across the board, many of the arguments we use would disappear.
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Exactly my thoughts re new government - the time is right and ripe. And homogenisation. Been saying for it years and even mentioned to an adjudicator some months ago.
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To homogenise London Bus Lane legislation with Moving Traffic legislation. - Hippocrates' petition.
I think that this hints at an alternative way forward. As Mr Mustard & CP point out above (replies#9 & #11), the disparity in legislation governing the various types of PCN and ensuing enforcement needs urgently addressing.
Might it be fruitful to collect together from the experts here what each considers the most important changes needed? For example the blanket rejection by EAs of OoT statements, or enforcing 'bus lanes when.where no 'buses are running. Adjudicators could have powers to direct EAs to make improvements to signage and markings and to consider mitigation.
Then perhaps collaborating with, e.g., R.A.C. and the A.A. in assembling a case for the new government.
Standardising the enforcement process might makle it easier for recipients of PCNs to appeal and encourage local authorities to be less trigger-happy with the 'computer say no' button.
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@Hippocrates I think the key issue is having willing OPs is not enough, we need to be able to support them. The best way IMO is to get more willing representatives. Maybe you can find a law student who fancies some real-life litigation experience?
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This thread appears to have gone off topic. ;D
I simply asked how to encourage more people to fight.
I will contact one of the cameramen involved with Parking Mad some years ago. MrMustard and I appeared on separate programmes.
Meanwhile, I am doing my best to get stories published and getting moving traffic legislation changed:
https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/tommy-poirot-to-expose-all-london-councils'-bus-lane-enforcement/msg26266/#msg26266
And my petition which now needs to resuscitated due to the General Election.
My petition:
Create the right to examine council witnesses in moving traffic contraventions
To homogenise London Bus Lane legislation with Moving Traffic legislation. Para 7(6) https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/schedule/1/enacted needs to be incorporated into The London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003.
Millions of Penalty Charge Notices are sent out to motorists each year in London. It is a matter of record that, in the cases overturned in bus lane legislation, the training of the officers concerned is somewhat questionable as is their actual knowledge of the law. And, indeed, the lack of proper certification of their camera equipment. It is a human right to have the facility to question one's accusers about their evidence and the lack of homogeneity concerning these two legislations is stark and unfair.
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The two most basic of inputs would need to be:
1) The Act of Parliament under which the PCN falls (which is given on the face of the PCN or Notice to Owner), and
2) The stage at which the PCN is.
You'd want to incorporate instructions based on all the various permutations listed at https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process and https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/how-to-appeal/ (the most common being TMA 2004, LLA&TFL Act 2003 and LLA Act 1996) depending on whether it's a roadside PCN, CCTV PCN, drive away PCN etc. You'd want the system to explain that for their type of PCN, they can make informal / formal representations as applicable.
You'd also want to explain that at least as far as England & Wales is concerned, pretty much all local authorities except Nottingham and (for CAZ PCNs only) Birmingham, the discount is reoffered at the formal reps stage if representations are made within 14 days of the date of issue of the notice to owner or postal PCN.
And then you'd want to cover all the scenarios I have written these guides for:
https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-pcn/
https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-local-autho/
https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-l-1805/
https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-the-road-user-charging-schemes-(penalty-charges-adjudication-/
https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-notic/
https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/ground-2-witness-statements-statutory-declarations-accepted-by-the-traffic-enfor/
As for the last guide, we've not got a version for the Traffic Penalty Tribunal as that scenario has not come up yet.
That's the most basic structure that would at least explain the procedural side of things.
Of course one major problem we have is that most people come to us with a half-baked story and they misunderstand / misdescribe what's happened or what documents they've received, which is why we always ask to just see the paperwork and mostly ignore what people tell us they think has happened (at least until after we've seen the documents).
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If we could have some sort of case management tool to ensure people don't miss deadlines or otherwise mess up the process, that would be helpful, though I don't think any of the current large language models can provide any meaningful drafting, the few examples I've seen have been a complete car crash (in one recent case where a client send me a draft written for him by Chat GPT, I explained why it was all wrong and his response was "that's the last time I'm using AI to draft an appeal").
I don't think something like this could ever be commercially viable in the sense of making a commercial return, the sums in issue are just too small (and if you went to market with an RFP, I very much doubt you'd get any quotes under 100k).
But then if someone has the time and skill to write it in the first place, the ongoing run costs should be fairly minimal and I'm happy to chip in to any hosting costs, to the extent that advertising revenue can't cover it.
The other issue is maintaining he system, we don't want to have something like the old NIP wizard on pepipoo which wasn't updated for 10+ years.
What would you like from a system such as that? If you could draft some "necessity" and "nice to have" features I could have a quick go at seeing how feasible it is?
Alternatively, I am not sure if it exists or even if you can use addons on CAF but there might be a "per user" calendar plugin/addon which would allow you to set events per user on certain dates (and then notify them)?
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1 complex legislation, it took me a year or two to get up to speed. During that time you could lose many PCNs and feel like giving up (as it happens I won my first 38 tribunal cases and nowadays I lose more if I get the 'wrong' adjudicator)
That's where I think a pupilage system could help: rather than letting people go off on their own, we would need novice representatives to act under the supervision of an established representative. It would be much easier for someone to learn how to go about things if they're simply told how things work / what legal arguments to use / what strategy is known to be effective, rather than having to work everything out for themselves from scratch.
If someone can find me a willing and capable pupil, I'd be more than happy to train someone up.
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If we could have some sort of case management tool to ensure people don't miss deadlines or otherwise mess up the process, that would be helpful, though I don't think any of the current large language models can provide any meaningful drafting, the few examples I've seen have been a complete car crash (in one recent case where a client send me a draft written for him by Chat GPT, I explained why it was all wrong and his response was "that's the last time I'm using AI to draft an appeal").
I don't think something like this could ever be commercially viable in the sense of making a commercial return, the sums in issue are just too small (and if you went to market with an RFP, I very much doubt you'd get any quotes under 100k).
But then if someone has the time and skill to write it in the first place, the ongoing run costs should be fairly minimal and I'm happy to chip in to any hosting costs, to the extent that advertising revenue can't cover it.
The other issue is maintaining he system, we don't want to have something like the old NIP wizard on pepipoo which wasn't updated for 10+ years.
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Depending on how much it would cost to deploy such a programme, does it need to be commercially viable? Much as support for FTLA would be appreciated, it is currently financed by me (others do much of the running of the site though).
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I think a possible solution is software which helps people follow due process, suggests possible challenge wordings and ensures they don't miss a deadline and could have online experts who contribute as on FTLA, possibly for a small fee. Who has the skillset to write it, what would it cost and can it be commercialised on a pay per pcn basis?
I'll ask my son. He currently writes software for passport control in USA etc. You met him once at The Angel in our early days. :)
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I think that the problems include:
1 complex legislation, it took me a year or two to get up to speed. During that time you could lose many PCNs and feel like giving up (as it happens I won my first 38 tribunal cases and nowadays I lose more if I get the 'wrong' adjudicator)
2 a shortage of people who have the time, ability & inclination to assist strangers with their problems. I am struggling to keep up now it is summer with my 50-100 PCN workload as I am trying to be away cycling every other week.
3 the economics of trying to run a business to do this
4 Apathy (as already stated) and here is an example of someone who wants to beat their second moving traffic PCN at the same location but doesn't really want to put in any effort.
Hi Derek,
Sorry for the delayed response.
I have just confirmed and I believe that the second contravention happened before the first letter was received so there was no notice, if that makes sense.
His mother is a resident of the area, hence why the driver was there on multiple occasions. I believe there are resident cards available for this but they do not own one.
Please let me know what you think, happy to appeal it if you think it is the better option.
The signs are there to tell you where and how to drive not PCNs.
That said that multiple PCNs argument sometimes works but won't for me as I give councils hell so kindness in return is not likely.
I do not wish to volunteer to make representations for this PCN but nothing stops Redacted from doing so (they must be in his name).
Best regards
Derek
This exchange was during the week. The PCN is now paid.
I think a possible solution is software which helps people follow due process, suggests possible challenge wordings and ensures they don't miss a deadline and could have online experts who contribute as on FTLA, possibly for a small fee. Who has the skillset to write it, what would it cost and can it be commercialised on a pay per pcn basis?
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The fact that so many foul things up is a damning indictment of a hugely loaded system.
It really ought to the case that things should be simple enough for an average individual to be able to go through the process without hindering themselves by procedural missteps.
I have a saying: "To win an appeal is like climbing Mt. Everest. To achieve costs is like climbing Mt Everest without oxygen equipment."
Even when I think I have a watertight case, one never knows what will happen. I did a bus lane case in March and had to tell the adjudicator the law dictates that the appeal must be allowed. The hearing was far too long.
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The impulses behind my question were as follows:
1. To encourage more motorists to fight their tickets - the general public. I did not wish to imply any direct involvement of this site or any individuals either.
2. To cut through the general apathy of most recipients - for whatever reason - who simply pay up at the first stage.
I have some ideas which would utilise media etc.
On a personal note, of course I am available to do more appeals if requested. I also know my limitations and strengths. ;) And, I am improving. 8)
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The fact that so many foul things up is a damning indictment of a hugely loaded system.
It really ought to the case that things should be simple enough for an average individual to be able to go through the process without hindering themselves by procedural missteps.
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@Hippocrates and who is going to conduct all these additional appeals?
A few (very few) people can do it themselves, but in the vast majority of cases if you leave people to their own devices they run a serious risk of messing things up, we've seen that pattern play out repeatedly:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/warwickshire-cc-pcn-code-24-not-within-markings-of-bay-lakin-road-warwick/msg3575/#msg3575
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/walking-pushing-my-bike-in-a-restricted-zone/msg20666/#msg20666
https://web.archive.org/web/20230704113549/http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=149680&mode=linear
I just had someone contact me yesterday and they'd messed things up so much they had a charge certificate they had no grounds to challenge, at least that was resolved quickly.
There is certainly no shortage of appellants and unless you're going to set up a representatives training scheme and recruit some more people to help, I'm not sure having the site flooded with loads of threads nobody has the time to investigate properly and in a timely manner would be that beneficial.
I'm already operating at full capacity (despite the fact that I now charge everyone), I'm not sure Derek has much spare capacity either. If you want to offer your services to more motorists on here or on the facebook group, be my guest!
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As you all know, I have been in this "game" for many years. The administrative staff at London Tribunals fondly describe me as one of The Three Musketeers. (The portly one) :D The other two - though younger* - are more prolific than I. No problem. ;D
Please: how do we get more people to fight their tickets?
*Only slightly as far as one is concerned. ;) The other guy's reputation - The Wizard - precedes him. :)