Free Traffic Legal Advice

Hi guys. I'm a newbie, found out about your forum from Money Saving Expert. On my estate in London, where I live, is a known issue with letters not being delivered by Royal Mail. We have resident's association that created a monthly newsletters and it was mentioned in April 2024 newsletter too, so I'm not the only one having issue and apparently many people do.The association has complained to RM, talked to local delivery office manager and even raised it with the local MP, so they are on it to try to sort it out.

As a result I had one PCN (let's call it 'private PCN') charge showing up 3 months late - I paid the increase as it was only £35 and I thought it was a one off. But after Easter we found Transport for London (TFL) letter informing us of increasing the PCN charge from £160 to £240. So it turned out to be still an ongoing issue.

As we were away for holiday combined with the Easter break, we only found that letter after we returned. We submitted late representation explaining the issue, sent the only evidence we had at the time. It was a photo of the 'private PCN' with a hand written note on the envelope by a neighbour telling the postman to read the address properly as they are frequently getting our letters delivered to their address (same door number but different street name, next to me though). The note said they get to go back to the post box and send it back, and that it happens too often. It explains perhaps why it took so long for private PCN to arrive. The private PCN letter was dated end of November 2023, and we received it end of February 2024. They seem fed up by that. We also filed a complaint with royal mail directly and included complaint reference number in our late representation to the TFL. However, we only got a reply from the RM a week later, so the reply was not included in the late representation. Since then, our residence's association also posted in April Newsletter (I still have a copy of that) about issue of the letters not being delivered. Apparently a whole bag of letters was found by the resident, and there has been many complaints about the letters not being delivered. 

I emailed the resident's association today asking if they can help me get any other evidence of the correspondence delivery issue. It is because the TFL's late representation reply was delivered today - they asked me to pay unless I can provide “an additional evidence that outlines why your correspondence was late”. The letter itself  arrived late. It is dated 24/04/24 and was delivered only today, 02/05/24, so 8 days since it was dated, which is not great as is leaving us only 5 days (14 days from the date of the letter) to provide the evidence requested. The TFL letter states that if full amount is not paid within 14 days from the date of the letter, the TFL will apply for the County Court to recover the charges, which will also incur a further charge of £9, followed by Order of Recovery of the charge. I don’t think it is fair to be paying extra charges due to Royal Mail issue, while at the same time I don’t particularly want to be issued Order of Recovery for not paying additional £80.

I must say I'm not sure how serious this all is, and what actually Order of recovery is and whether I should worry about it? We are thinking of buying property in the next 2-3 years so having anything that lowers my credit score is not great. When we were renting our existing flat my partner had CCJ issued 5 years prior and it showed up, slowed down the whole renting process and only because the landlords were nice and reasonable, we got to rent the property anyway.

I'm planning to send a reply from the Royal Mail that mentions staff levels issues of my local RM delivery office and copy of the newsletter from resident's association, and might ask that neighbour that got our 'private PCN' for a written statement too (and keep for the future), and if the resident association can send me any more evidence I'll include that too. But is there anything else I can do? I'm happy to pay £160 if that's what I'd be able to pay as a minimum if I had actually received Tfl's 1st letter about the PCN charge. But it feels unfair and unreasonable to pay more due to Royal Mail issues.

Shall I just pay the TFL extra £80 if they still do not accept the additional evidence and try my luck recovering the extra fees from the Royal Mail itself? Can you take the Royal Mail to small claims court? They already costed me £35. I want them to take the ownership for this but it might be rainbows and unicorns wishful thinking. although what about the principles - or would I be wasting time to fight a lost cause?

I'd appreciate your thoughts and advice.

Teacholic

Sorry, but what do you mean by "private PCN" ?  YOu have also posted no documents at all, so it is all a bit confusing.

It’s just another PCN notice we got, not from TFL but parking company, that I used the term ‘private PCN’ to tell apart from PCN issued by TFL. I don’t have access to the letters currently. Sorry it makes it harder to understand the case. The letters themselves do not have much info, especially the one informing they increased the charge as we didn’t respond to previous PCN notice by TFl (never received).

Hi guys. I attached the letters from the tfl.

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@Teacholic this can likely be easily dealt with but before we can give you any advice we need to know for sure what has happened based on seeing the documents, rather than relying on your summary of what you think has happened. If nothing else because I suspect TFL might have committed a procedural impropriety, which could get the PCN cancelled altogether.

Please read the guidance here and post up all the paperwork you have received from TFL (we don't need to see the private parking charge you've referred to), and everything you've sent to TFL.

Hi. Thanks so much for thinking about this case more. I attached now the letters and late representation.

@Teacholic you need to follow the instructions here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-pcn/

Please confirm that you understand the steps you need to follow

Hi. So I checked the TFl website (see the attachment)and my PCN is on hold. So my debt should be registered with TEC on 15/05, isn’t it?


Are you saying that I do not send additional info to the TFL (as they requested in the letter from the 24th of April? And instead send the TE9 form on the 15/05 or 16/05 when debt is registered with TEC?


What happens after TE9 form is submitted, and possible outcomes? Would any of those include having CCJ issued?

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Well it would be helpful to be able to see the PCN status and photos, but you can send me the registration privately if your prefer. However your partner might want to consider that the registration is on show for everyone to see every time the car is parked or driven down the road, so it's hard to see what difference it would make it you put it on here.

You should order the DVD in any event.

It's hard to see what point there is in responding to TFL, they are unlikely to accept that the original PCN was not served but if you follow the TEC process then they have no choice as it's no longer up to them.

More importantly it gives TFL a good chance of committing a procedural impropriety.

Your PCN relates to a parking contravention.

You have stated in your correspondence that you did not receive the PCN at all, not that it was delivered late.

It is therefore the case that the following applies:

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/parking-penalty-charge-notice-enforcement-process#cc

What's happening at present is that because there's going to be float time in the process i.e. until TfL in their infinite wisdom decide to issue an OfR, posters are trying to anticipate the inevitable issuing of another PCN (as will happen) and look at the circumstances of the contravention itself e.g. looking at the traffic order etc. and process issues regarding the PCN. This is why your VRM is needed as this gives us access to TfL's data e.g. photos, PCN history etc. It's your choice to provide or not.

Quote from: H C Andersen on May 04, 2024, 08:47:46 pm

What's happening at present is that because there's going to be float time in the process i.e. until TfL in their infinite wisdom decide to issue an OfR, posters are trying to anticipate the inevitable issuing of another PCN (as will happen) and look at the circumstances of the contravention itself e.g. looking at the traffic order etc. and process issues regarding the PCN. This is why your VRM is needed as this gives us access to TfL's data e.g. photos, PCN history etc. It's your choice to provide or not.

This.

In any case if you eventually end up with an appeal to the tribunal, regardless of the outcome your name and number plate, together with the reasons for the adjudicator's decision, will all be published on the statutory register at https://londontribunals.org.uk/ for the whole world to see. So the real question is, what is there to gain in hiding this information until after the case is over?

We've had plenty of cases where people have not followed our advice, have decided they knew best, and it didn't end well, see these cases:

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/warwickshire-cc-pcn-code-24-not-within-markings-of-bay-lakin-road-warwick/
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/walking-pushing-my-bike-in-a-restricted-zone/

In the event the appeal is ultimately lost it might be that someone looks at the details (once they're all published online anyway) and goes "ah-ha you could have argued X Y and Z", but at that point it's too late as you only get one shot at persuading the adjudicator, so it's better to go all the investigative work up-front.

@cp8759 Thank you. It is clearer to me wha you'd prefer to have the car's registration number for. 

I still do not feel comfortable with my car's registration details being on a public forum or anyone else having it, which combined with my PNC number notice will give an access to my sensitive data (email address) and my image on TFL's website - I am on the photos. I'm sure you can appreciate how some people will not be okay with that. While my car registration will be posted in the appeal eventually, it will not be linked to my personal image/photos, my email address (from which you will gain my last name) etc, and it will not be publicised on the forums like this. By providing you the car registration number it will expose me to scams and identity fraud that is not that challenging to achieve in the modern time by fraudsters. Regrettably my family has had some experience of sensitive info stolen and misused and dealt with aftermath and the negative consequences. Perhaps it makes it clearer why my position is the way it is, although to some it might seem ‘paranoid’. Upon considering your point and weighing in pros and cos I'm not going o provide the car registration details. However, it seems that you do not really need it anyway, as I can just upload everything here. I hope you can still provide help (that I deeply appreciate, by the way) and support while respecting my decision.

I attached traffic cameras photos and update of PCN status here (page 1, for page 2 and other documents see other replied that will be on page 2 of this thread). I’ll create a separate replies to include all the other relevant information (sensitive and identifiable information deducted) so it is easier to review. 

UPDATE WHERE I AM IN THE PROCESS

I have indeed provided additional evidence for TFL today that included email with resident association conforming the issue and copies of their communication with the Royal Mail and the local MP regarding this. Realistically I’ most likely will get Notice of Rejection that then will allow me to appeal to the London Tribunal. I think the London Tribunal will accept the appeal  under ‘The penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case’ - because I have not received PCN due to Royal Mail letter delivery issues that I can prove and think the judge or whoever makes the decision would cancel the charge or increase.

@H C Andersen thanks for the link outlining procedures relating to PCNs. It re-assures me that it will not go straight into Country Court. In all honestly, because we are planing to move within couple-ish of years, I do not want to risk having the debt registered and CCJ on my record and difficulty having it ‘set aside’ or cancelled and still showing up 1-2 years later. So. I’d rather pay extra £80 if Tribunal rejects the appeal  and try to get this money repaid by Royal Mail instead.

From that link H C Anderson sent:

“Notice of Appeal

This is the form which the enforcement authority should send you their Notice of Rejection. The grounds on which the adjudicator may allow your appeal are the same as for making representations:

* The contravention did not occur;
* You were not the owner of the vehicle at the relevant time;
* The vehicle was parked by someone in control of it without the owner’s consent;
* The vehicle is owned by a hire firm who have supplied the name and address of the hirer;
* The penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case;
* There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority;
* The Traffic Order allegedly contravened is invalid;
* The civil enforcement officer was not prevented by some person from fixing the penalty charge notice to the vehicle or handing it to the person in charge of the vehicle.
* The penalty charge has already been paid.

The adjudicator can only allow an appeal if one of these grounds applies. Adjudicators cannot allow appeals for other reasons, e.g. mitigating circumstances, although they can refer the matter back to the enforcement authority for reconsideration if there are compelling reasons for doing so.”

@cp8759 & @H C Andersen  do you think my appeal to London Tribunal under ‘ The penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case’ will be accepted? Are there any other grounds I can appeal the PCN charge that you can see with posted information below, including the photos? I think you mentioned wanting TFL to commit procedural impropriety. So far they have not been a procedural impropriety I use as grounds for appeal to the Tribunal?

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