3. Walking pushing my bike in a restricted zone
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moctey

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Walking pushing my bike in a restricted zone
« on: February 08, 2024, 01:23:40 pm »
The video evidence shows me at all time pushing my bike at a time where the area is restricted

For the council it doesn't exempt me from the restriction... are they right? Is there a way to escape this?
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Hippocrates

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Re: Walking pushing my bike in a restricted zone
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2024, 02:04:09 pm »
Unfortunately yes.  But, let's see the whole of the PCN plus your representations.
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

moctey

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Re: Walking pushing my bike in a restricted zone
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2024, 05:22:52 pm »
attached is the pcn

and my challenge:

Dear Sir or Madam,
On-line challenge for LJ26486094
On the grounds of:
The contravention did not occur
Reason:
At the time I am supposed to have been in contravention, the restriction did not apply
Further explanation :
This must have been issue automatically without taking into account that I stepped of my bike to push it by hand
because of the restriction. However I have done this many time and I am not sure what was different this time
because it's the first time I receive a PCN for doing that. Also my children are in the school on this street and I am
very happy that we have this
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Incandescent

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Re: Walking pushing my bike in a restricted zone
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2024, 06:34:24 pm »
Walking the motorbike past a "No Motor Vehicles" restriction is still a contravention, because it is a motor vehicle. If this was allowed, every motorbike rider would be doing it, and quite a few (big and fit) car drivers too !
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H C Andersen

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Re: Walking pushing my bike in a restricted zone
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2024, 07:22:07 pm »

Motor vehicles prohibited (prohibits use of the road by motor vehicles)

...is what the sign means.

However, ' I stepped of my bike to push it by hand
because of the restriction. However I have done this many time and I am not sure what was different this time
because it's the first time I receive a PCN for doing that.'

How often have you done this? Exactly the same circumstances? Any recently before this event?
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Hippocrates

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Re: Walking pushing my bike in a restricted zone
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2024, 07:28:11 pm »
What are the restricted times?
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

moctey

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Re: Walking pushing my bike in a restricted zone
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2024, 08:29:36 am »
restricted for school from 8.15am to something like 10.

How often have you done this? Exactly the same circumstances? Any recently before this event?
=> yes many times this year, I bring my children to school and every time I am after 8.15 I push the bike...well until now, not taking the risk anymore, but I wonder if I can push on pavement.

No motor vehicle... yes I agree but if we want to play dumb I can say that there is no proof that my vehicle had a motor at that time...
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Incandescent

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Re: Walking pushing my bike in a restricted zone
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2024, 09:26:37 am »
Except that if it has a reg. number, and is registered at the DVLA, it is classed as a motor vehicle. And no, pushing it on the footway is also banned as the restriction applies to the road, not just the carriageway.

Sorry to say it, but you seem to be bang-to-rights on this one.
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H C Andersen

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Re: Walking pushing my bike in a restricted zone
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2024, 10:13:57 am »
See if the discount's still available* - if so I'd pay it.

If not, then you might as well appeal to the adjudicator.

*- 14 days from date of letter was actually yesterday, 8th.
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mrmustard

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Re: Walking pushing my bike in a restricted zone
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2024, 11:04:08 am »
You have only given us 3 pages of the PCN, I need to see the fourth one please. It might not quite be compliant.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2024, 01:38:49 pm by mrmustard »
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I help you pro bono (for free). I only ask that a donation is made to the North London Hospice if you can afford it and if you win. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless.

Hippocrates

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Re: Walking pushing my bike in a restricted zone
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2024, 01:37:41 pm »
As above.  The only way out of this is a technical argument, a failure to consider or a mess up from them. We lost a case last year re a lady who pushed her motorcycle through a restricted area even when it was broken down.  Islington. The case history is clear I am afraid.
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

Hippocrates

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Re: Walking pushing my bike in a restricted zone
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2024, 01:43:36 pm »
Quote from: moctey on February 09, 2024, 08:29:36 am
restricted for school from 8.15am to something like 10.


No motor vehicle... yes I agree but if we want to play dumb I can say that there is no proof that my vehicle had a motor at that time...

You are surely joking?  I would save such a comment IF you win at Penderel's Oak rendezvous!
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

moctey

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Re: Walking pushing my bike in a restricted zone
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2024, 08:08:14 am »
yes I find this almost as dumb as giving someone a traffic offense because he is walking slowly because his bike is too heavy too push. Seriously those council persons supposed to work for their people have no shame and I find it amusing that people in this country don't push back. Anyway... I have submitted my appeal with no real arguments, I am going to lose this one.
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Hippocrates

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Re: Walking pushing my bike in a restricted zone
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2024, 12:46:42 pm »
What did you write?
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

sparxy

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Re: Walking pushing my bike in a restricted zone
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2024, 05:01:25 pm »
I did try finding a TMO for this road, but couldn't find one. It appears it's part of the Lambeth "School streets" scheme.

However, I did find this: https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2022-04/Walnut%20Tree%20Walk%20Primary%20School%20-%20Walnut%20Tree%20Walk%20Closure.pdf

The maps show the "closure points", but they seem further in than where the signs are positioned (on both ends).

Then this map from the proposal shows barriers and signage being "just in front" of the disabled bay on the right -  which is in front of where OP is positioned in all but the last photograph.

https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/commonplace-customer-assets/lambethemergencyschoolstreets/Walnut%20Tree%20Walk%2C%20Fitzalan%20St%20-%20WTW%20PS.pdf

(https://lambethschoolstreets.commonplace.is/en-GB/proposals/walnut-tree-walk-primary-school/step1)


Obviously notwithstanding the council changing the proposal and position of restriction, maybe some more knowledgeable folks would be able to do something with this.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 05:05:26 pm by sparxy »
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